[dragntailonfire]

The consensus is that, Arsenal does not have a target man, other than Lacazette. Aubameyang, Ozil or Pepe are really bad at winning the long ball, and generally, Arsenal are poor nowadays off the ball. The idea is to keep possession and playing out from the back is the only way. All long goal kicks taken are won by the opposition and play immediately arrives back in the box due to poor defending.
This is something Emery needs to sort out.
On the other hand it was a joy to watch Norwich break the City press and play the way they did. It was completely fearless play and they beat City at their own game.

[Chetan_Rao]

The problem with playing out from the back against teams that press high, is one needs center-backs and wing-backs (and often deep defensive midfielders) who can play ball in tight spaces while being positionally aware of where the nearest opponents are. There are plenty of players who can do either of those things well, few who can do both simultaneously, still fewer who can for an entire game, day in and day out.

Control ball but lose opponent: trouble.
Track opponent but ball not in control: trouble.

[Akash86M]

Originally Posted by joslicx

The likes of Klopp, Pep, Mourinho, Zidane etc totally depend on extra special players.

How Sir Alex changed English football, infact his impact on whole Europe is undeniable and well documented.

Let me share my view on them:

Mr Pep Fraudiola has only managed 3 teams (not counting FCB B team) at FCB he had Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, to name a few. At Bayern, He had Ribbery, Robben, Lewandowski, Neuer. At Man City, he's got Sterling, Aguero, K D Bruyne, among others. He has always had players in their prime, extra special players.

Mourinho is The Special One, who, these days relies on special players. His time at FC Porto brought him to lime light. Winning Europa League, Champions League with a bunch of underdogs. He has done it all, won it all. He was blamed for Man United disaster, but it turns out he was the best thing they had. Did his best to turn aroun united's fortunes but it was not to be.

Zidane, well he has won 3 Champions League titles in a row. That says something about him.

Klopp, he is The Normal One. I have been following him since his B Dortmund days. He has never had the privilege of having special players in his squad. He is known for his player development and Gegenpress. Helped Mainz 05 get promoted to Bundesliga 1, Won two back to titles with B Dortmund. Reached two Champions League finals in a row with Liverpool FC, Won it the second time.

To name a few, Lewandowski(Bayern), Hummels(Bayern), Aubameyang(Arsenal), Gundogan (Man City) are his ex players.

At LFC, None of the current squad member was 'a special player'. He has an eye for talent, Van Dijk, Salah, Mane, Matip, Robertson were not special at their previous clubs. Klopp has raised the bar since recruiting them. His development and management skills is evident if you notice Matip game since the time he has joined LFC (one of many examples). Latest example can be taken of No13, GK Adrian, There is big difference in his gameplay from what it was against Southampton and Yesterday, against Napoli.

Liverpool FC Fan

Cheers

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by Akash86M

Klopp, he is The Normal One. I have been following him since his B Dortmund days. He has never had the privilege of having special players in his squad. He is known for his player development and Gegenpress. Helped Mainz 05 get promoted to Bundesliga 1, Won two back to titles with B Dortmund. Reached two Champions League finals in a row with Liverpool FC, Won it the second time.

To name a few, Lewandowski(Bayern), Hummels(Bayern), Aubameyang(Arsenal), Gundogan (Man City) are his ex players.

At LFC, None of the current squad member was 'a special player'. He has an eye for talent, Van Dijk, Salah, Mane, Matip, Robertson were not special at their previous clubs. Klopp has raised the bar since recruiting them. His development and management skills is evident if you notice Matip game since the time he has joined LFC (one of many examples). Latest example can be taken of No13, GK Adrian, There is big difference in his gameplay from what it was against Southampton and Yesterday, against Napoli.

Liverpool FC Fan

Cheers

Let us establish a marker as to whom we can call as top/special players and whom we can call as average players. For me the criteria for a special player is simple. He should be able to command a transfer to another top club in the world! In other words, if the said player were to move then is a top club a realistic destination or some mid level club a realistic destination. The reason for this criteria is simple. Top clubs want top players to play for them and top players want to play for top clubs as these clubs have better chances of winning things and players want to win things.

Having established this, lets see if you would call the likes of Lewandowski, Reus, Kagawa, Hummels, Gundogan etc as top players or average players. Would you call the likes of Van Dijk, Salah, Mane, Matip, Robertson, Firmino, Arnold, Alisson etc as top players or average players. And would you call the likes of Cleverly, Park, Fletcher, Obertan, Young, Valencia etc as top players or average players? Just look at where all of them are today!

I rest my case.

[vamsi.kona]

Originally Posted by Akash86M

Mr Pep Fraudiola has only managed 3 teams (not counting FCB B team) at FCB he had Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, to name a few. At Bayern, He had Ribbery, Robben, Lewandowski, Neuer. At Man City, he's got Sterling, Aguero, K D Bruyne, among others. He has always had players in their prime, extra special players.

Cheers

The system that Pep plays certanly requires a higher level of skill set that regular players, but the greatness in him is how he manages to take those players to yet another level and makes the collective better than their their individual sums. Having the balls to remove a player of the capabilities of Ronaldinho, Eto (Though after 1 season) isn't as easy for a manager in his first job at the elite level. Also I believe Pep's system works better in leagues than cup competitions as a one off bad day can be remedied in the league while the same cannot be said about cup competitions, where luck of draws, etc are still required along with the skill sets.

It was said that Pep would struggle in Premier League, what with the pressure etc. But he managed to win two in a row with record 100 points 1 season and 98 in the other. Also players like Sterling, and De Bruyne were considered good but not great players. The growth trajectory of Sterling is pretty obvious from Pep's first season to now.

On the whole Premier league now has three great managers in Pep, Klopp and Pochettino, though the lack of signings and thin squad can limit Pochettino from winning anything.

[naveenroy]

Wowza what a weekend of football. Wonderful to see Wolves win. Love, love that team and wish them all the best. Even more happy it was ManC.

Good also that ManU lost. 4th place assured for Arsenal LOL

[vb-san]

Originally Posted by naveenroy

Good also that ManU lost. 4th place assured for Arsenal LOL

I feel Liecester will give a good fight for the top 4 spots.

[DaptChatterjee]

Originally Posted by naveenroy

Wonderful to see Wolves win. Love, love that team and wish them all the best.

Wolves are good to watch. But European commitments may hamper them this year.

Good also that ManU lost. 4th place assured for Arsenal LOL

Why not 3rd? Spurs are in shambles! Both Chelsea and Arsenal must be licking their lips!

Originally Posted by vb-san

I feel Liecester will give a good fight for the top 4 spots.

Brendan Rodgers deserves a lot of credit for that.

[naveenroy]

Originally Posted by vamsi.kona

On the whole Premier league now has three great managers in Pep, Klopp and Pochettino, though the lack of signings and thin squad can limit Pochettino from winning anything.

I always wonder why Pochettino is considered such a big deal? Honestly - what has he done with Spurs?

Originally Posted by DaptChatterjee

Why not 3rd? Spurs are in shambles! Both Chelsea and Arsenal must be licking their lips!

Haha, just a running joke about Arsenal always being 4th.

[strawhat]

Originally Posted by naveenroy

I always wonder why Pochettino is considered such a big deal? Honestly - what has he done with Spurs?

Poch has done a fabulous job by establishing them as a consistent top 4 club over the last few years. Champions League was a one-off occurrence for them until then. Also they were ridiculed for having an abysmal record against big teams.

You have to remember that their owners weren't investing in the squad like their top 6 rivals. During last season's transfer window they hadn't even recruited a single player. Even with all these constraints they managed to make the top 4. Similar cases since he joined them. When he was at Southampton, he was highly admired for their brand of football.

If trophies are the single barometer against which success is measured, then he isn't a success yet. But to my eyes he has more than earned the respect and repertoire to now be able to manage the biggest clubs. May be Man Utd one day...?

Oh by the way I am an Arsenal fan

[vamsi.kona]

Originally Posted by naveenroy

I always wonder why Pochettino is considered such a big deal? Honestly - what has he done with Spurs?

I believe @strawhat has explained it. Without the kind of financial backing that other top teams and evem some mid to lower tier teams had in terms of transfers, Pochettino did quite a good job to make Spurs a contender in the top 4. Of course I believe he did make a mistake, I believe last season or the one before, where he probably didn't take domestic cup competitions as seriously as he could, especially when they were in semis and had a good opportunity.

With a better squad, I believe, he may be able to compete even better.

[Chetan_Rao]

Poch did for Spurs what Wenger did for the Gunners around their Emirates move last decade. Keep the club competitive, manage the spending/debt and build for the future.

Wenger refused to play the inflated price game once funds did become available (and was probably too loyal to some of his players to see they weren't good enough anymore). Poch can't afford to spend because Levy is far stingier and they went over budget on the stadium. A lot of his players now want out, but not many will find takers among the top clubs. Son is world-class (underrated), Eriksen is a hot commodity, I'm not entirely convinced Kane is world-class, and the other prospects (Alli, Dier, Winks etc.) aren't progressing after promising starts. Quite the conundrum.

[naveenroy]

Originally Posted by strawhat

Poch has done a fabulous job by establishing them as a consistent top 4 club over the last few years.
------------------------
You have to remember that their owners weren't investing in the squad like their top 6 rivals.
------------------------
If trophies are the single barometer against which success is measured, then he isn't a success yet. But to my eyes he has more than earned the respect and repertoire to now be able to manage the biggest clubs. May be Man Utd one day...?

Oh by the way I am an Arsenal fan

Originally Posted by vamsi.kona

Without the kind of financial backing that other top teams and evem some mid to lower tier teams had in terms of transfers, Pochettino did quite a good job to make Spurs a contender in the top 4.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Poch did for Spurs what Wenger did for the Gunners around their Emirates move last decade.

I've quoted the relevant points.

Nothing against you guys but to me, Poch is just a much poorer (not in terms of money) version of Arsene - who managed the pressure so well inspite of no financial backing from the management. In his death throes, he was much better than Poch can ever be. It riles me that these are the points we talk about now - how great it is to keep a club in the 4th spot but Arsene was ridiculed and hammered for being able to do that. Consistently. No, I understand that the argument is that that was not enough. But it looks like that is enough for Spurs. And the pundits applaud Poch for doing just that - nothing. The trophy cabinet is empty.

I too think that Son and Erikson are good - they deserve much better. But Kane - bah.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by naveenroy

....Poch is just a much poorer (not in terms of money) version of Arsene - who managed the pressure so well inspite of no financial backing from the management. In his death throes, he was much better than Poch can ever be. .....

I've professed my admiration for Le Professeur before (pun unintended).

Personally, I'd like to see Poch manage a well-funded team before I write him off.

The trophy cabinet is empty.

Here's the (not so) shocking bit. A lot of clubs are now run as businesses first, sporting establishments second.

Man Utd. are a mess on the pitch (been for a while now), but are generating revenue hand-over-fist commercially. Same for Real Madrid. Financially prudent clubs that aren't drowning in debt are hard to find, even fewer that don't have owners siphoning off any earnings for personal gain instead of reinvesting back into the club. German clubs are better managed in that regard.

Spurs and Arsenal (of the last decade) are invariably also the ones that couldn't/can't consistently afford to buy absurdly-priced 'world class' talent needed to fill up that trophy cabinet. Spurs got within 90 mins of winning the Big Ears, so credit where it's due.

[naveenroy]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Here's the (not so) shocking bit. A lot of clubs are now run as businesses first, sporting establishments second.

Yes - even for Arsenal. The Kroenke family (own the LA Rams-NFL) have a tight grip around their throats. And they know it is the golden goose and they will wring it for what it's worth. They don't care if Arsenal do badly - if the coffers keep getting filled that is.

OTOH, good to see Arteta being handed the reigns to Arsenal now. But it needs patience - more than a year is going to go by. Hopefully we don't lose players and are able to make some good signings next season. The players had a respect for Arteta as a captain, hope that carries over when he is their head coach. Good luck to him.