[sportz_kruzer]

Hi guys..I am unable to find the original main seal (the one behind flywheel) for my w124 e220 1996. Oil was leaking something like a 2-3 drops a day, but nevertheless thought of getting it replaced. Unfortunately the new seal, which I replaced doesn't have the circular spring behind the rubber seal like the original one. It is simply flanged out and thus doesn't provide enough tension, hence oil started leaking straight away post install. I checked shops at palika bhavan delhi and they all say that that this is the new design and the only one avaliable and the old one is obsolete. Is this correct? I checked at many shops they all have the similar type. Can someone help me source the original type aeal? Please?

Please see the pics attached describing my situation.
Thanks!

[DudeWithaFiat]

So finally guys, after months, I have gathered enough funds to get myself a W124 and have started hunting. Am I going to find it difficult to get the parts if I will need one? And is it going to cost an arm to get the spares?

P.S:- I have discussed this before, but I'm unable to hold the excitement and a reply would be encouraging

[FlatOut]

Originally Posted by DudeWithaFiat

So finally guys, after months, I have gathered enough funds to get myself a W124 and have started hunting. Am I going to find it difficult to get the parts if I will need one? And is it going to cost an arm to get the spares?

P.S:- I have discussed this before, but I'm unable to hold the excitement and a reply would be encouraging

Well done for saving the money and deciding on such an all-time great piece of automotive engineering, one of the last - if not the last - from a time when top class engineers (who didn't rely on computers) had control of the engineering. There are few cars I haven't driven down the years, and these cars continue to impress me. I have a couple, both diesel estates - one a six cylinder auto, the other a five cylinder manual. Try to find a good diesel with an automatic if you can find one, but a manual will be a little quicker. The OM60x engines are quite superior to other oil-burning engines with Mercedes' own pre-combustion chamber design.

Pre-92 models were better built from better materials, but I've read on here the Indian-built cars are better than the last of the German builds.

[Viraat13]

Originally Posted by DudeWithaFiat

So finally guys, after months, I have gathered enough funds to get myself a W124 and have started hunting. Am I going to find it difficult to get the parts if I will need one? And is it going to cost an arm to get the spares?

P.S:- I have discussed this before, but I'm unable to hold the excitement and a reply would be encouraging

Well done!

Spares can be a problem some times, but if you persevere you'll manage. Some spares can be really cheap, but others at times can be mind bogglingly expensive. The wiring harness for example will be 50,000 straight away if you're getting a E220. The E250D has a cheaper wiring harness, but it doesn't usually need to be replaced as the car has fewer sensors than the petrol engined one, so a worn out harness works without any trouble. The diesel will need attention when it comes to the glow plug wiring harness though.

Suspension + steering is also quite an expensive activity. A full suspension overhaul will be another 60K. New headlamps run at about 30K a pair. The major expenditure will be on minor repairs. Getting the bumper rails fixed, or the upholstery repaired, or fixing the power windows. You might also need to get a new windscreen, and by this time they tend to have scratches on them.

I don't mean to scare you off, but such is the reality. The good part about getting original spares is that they will last you exactly as long as the original part in the car did. A new suspension will go for 80 to 100K more, with the proper care. A new wiring harness will never spoil, because the environment friendly rubbish was ditched. And so on..

I'm sorry for the lack of cohesiveness, I just wrote down stuff as it came to me.

Originally Posted by FlatOut

Try to find a good diesel with an automatic if you can find one, but a manual will be a little quicker. The OM60x engines are quite superior to other oil-burning engines with Mercedes' own pre-combustion chamber design.

Pre-92 models were better built from better materials, but I've read on here the Indian-built cars are better than the last of the German builds.

Well, DudeWithaFiat, I'd agree with the diesel automatic in principle. It's a wonderful cruiser and it's genuinely very relaxing to drive. An automatic transmission that doesn't work perfectly, is a major issue that maybe only a dealership can handle. If you do come across one, make sure you give the transmission a complete workout. I can maybe throw some further light on the automatic if and when you need, as of course can FlatOut, who has probably owned W124s longer than me, and has decidedly more experience with automatic transmissions of these cars.

FlatOut, just to clarify - while I maintain that I am not entirely sure if there is a noticeable difference in quality of the construction of the vehicles, I am certain that the higher coil springs of the Indian W124 is a major contributing factor in making them ride better.

[FlatOut]

Originally Posted by Viraat13

FlatOut, just to clarify - while I maintain that I am not entirely sure if there is a noticeable difference in quality of the construction of the vehicles, I am certain that the higher coil springs of the Indian W124 is a major contributing factor in making them ride better.

I'm sure that the different springs make a big difference to the ride in India - Germany has long been known for perfect road surfaces without blemish. Tyres make a big difference in this also - choose a tyre with a softer sidewall, this protects both driver and suspension and steering components no end. (Also choose the taller sidewall if there is a choice.)

Under-bonnet looms are only ever a problem on the later multi-valve petrol cars in my experience - maybe the glow-plug wiring suffers too on the multi-valve diesels, but this is hardly a big job to repair. Certainly the 2 valve per cylinder engines were simpler - glow-plug replacement on the 20v or 24v diesels isn't straightforwards, especially when the thinner, newer design of plug has a tendency to seize and snap off in the head.

As for spares, these cars were used as taxis throughout Europe for years, in fact in many countries they still are. Germany doesn't quite see a motor car in the terms of prestige we British and you Indians do - they're far more sensible about such things. And so there was never the same premium on parts prices, which rubs off in the aftermarket and second-hand market for 124 parts. They are usually very cheap indeed in Europe, so if you really struggle in India then have a look on British or German ebay. Front brake pads (to Euro spec) are advertised from £2.99 for example - that's about 240 rupees. Many second-hand parts are regularly advertised on ebay also, all at good prices.

So don't get worried about spares, there's always a way! A few 124 owners on this forum could club together and order a load of spares via myself if it turns out prices here are a lot cheaper than in India. Postage is sometimes less than you would imagine.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MERCEDES-E...item4170b131e5

[Viraat13]

Originally Posted by FlatOut

I'm sure that the different springs make a big difference to the ride in India ... (Also choose the taller sidewall if there is a choice.)

Under-bonnet looms ... in the head.

As for spares, ... all at good prices.

So don't get worried about spares, ... than you would imagine.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MERCEDES-E...item4170b131e5

My E220 runs on the stock size, but the 300E has 225/24/R17 (I think).

The glow plug harness isn't that complex to do, it's a simple system, which I find is frequently overlooked in my experience as we only have cold weather for about 2 or 3 months in a year, and by that I mean minimum temperatures of about 3 degrees Celsius (for a couple of weeks). So even a poorly functioning system will see you through. But a system that works well is just so much nicer. Of course, in the southern parts of India, winter is usually something like 16 degrees in Mumbai or Bangalore, so.

I know, but most of the times it's too much of a headache. Besides, I am certain that a large order will most definitely get stuck in customs over here, so the low postage doesn't really matter. Not to speak of the delivery delays and bribes...

Front brake pads (Textar) cost closer to INR 2000, here.

[FlatOut]

2000 rupees isn't a bad price at all, especially for a good brand. And customs/delivery problems can be a nightmare, I know. But as cars get older, the idea of sourcing parts from elsewhere on this shrinking globe makes more and more sense. Many panel parts are imported into the UK from South Africa for Traction Avants, they are totally rust free. The owners club puts together a whole shipping container of parts at once!

I hadn't realised that your part of India got so cold - you must be shivering in those temps! Somehow I thought 7 or 8C was as cold as India ever got, away from the mountains.

Those 17 inch wheels with shallow sidewalls sound like a recipe for an 'abrupt' ride - I soon got rid of some 60 profile tyres for the usual 195-65 15s on one of mine, although had I lived in a city I would probably have kept them. Narrower, taller tyres are so much better as soon as conditions deteriorate, whether surface or standing water. Plus there is no tramlining. Doesn't your car suffer in the suspension, steering and structural areas with these massive wheels and tyres?

[Viraat13]

Originally Posted by FlatOut

2000 rupees isn't a bad price at all, especially for a good brand. And customs/delivery problems can be a nightmare, I know. But as cars get older, the idea of sourcing parts from elsewhere on this shrinking globe makes more and more sense. Many panel parts are imported into the UK from South Africa for Traction Avants, they are totally rust free. The owners club puts together a whole shipping container of parts at once!

I hadn't realised that your part of India got so cold - you must be shivering in those temps! Somehow I thought 7 or 8C was as cold as India ever got, away from the mountains.

Those 17 inch wheels with shallow sidewalls sound like a recipe for an 'abrupt' ride - I soon got rid of some 60 profile tyres for the usual 195-65 15s on one of mine, although had I lived in a city I would probably have kept them. Narrower, taller tyres are so much better as soon as conditions deteriorate, whether surface or standing water. Plus there is no tramlining. Doesn't your car suffer in the suspension, steering and structural areas with these massive wheels and tyres?

True. It's why I didn't hesitate to pay that much. I wish it were possible to put together a container worth of parts, but it's really not necessary, not at this point in time anyway. The parts are still available in the country, if not in your own city.

Delhi is quite an anomaly. We get a lot of everything! Cold spells can cause the temperature to drop to a minimum of 1 or 2 degrees or so as the winds come from the northern part of the country (from the mountains). Hot spells mean a maximum of about 47 degrees (winds from Rajasthan/the desert). Monsoons usually cause a lot of havoc, as well as discomfort as the humidity is very high. In fact, it's about 36 degrees with 50% humidity right now.

The ride is firm, I'll agree. But it's not really uncomfortable. The sporty suspension set up, and the larger wheels make it a far more involving car to drive. In the E220, with the stock set up, I don't really have to slow down for minor bumps or speed breakers (This doesn't mean I go flying over them, but take them at a speed of say 40 km/h. This is really quite hard to explain, as it's so contextualised!). But in the other car, a concious effort has to be made. The car doesn't really suffer from tramlining, you have to keep in mind, our conditions are far worse than yours. No road is really that smooth, so constant steering input is something that is a necessity in any case! The steering is only slightly heavier, and the only problem area I see is that the outside edges of the front tyres are feathering due to the extra width, but this is normal in any car which has wider tyres.

I do not get what you mean by structural areas though. Could you elaborate?

EDIT!

Originally Posted by Viraat13

My E220 runs on the stock size, but the 300E has 225/24/R17 (I think).

225/45/R17! I have no idea how I managed to type in 24!

[FlatOut]

Very low profile tyres with your 'sporty' (=stiffer?) suspension set up will transfer much more loading into the suspension, which in turn transmits more stresses through to the body. You describe the experience as 'more involving'. Obviously I'm not aware of the type of roads you experience day to day, but even in Britain I wouldn't fit such low profile rubber to a car designed in the early 80s. Damping and spring rates (as well as subframe mountings, steering etc.) are tuned very carefully indeed to tyre sizes.

The car's suspension geometries, steering components and suspension are not designed for the tyres. Everything - spring rates, damper settings, subframe mounts, geometries at all suspension deflections etc. - is tuned to work with the characteristics of the 65-profile rubber (remember the tyre sidewall is as much part of the suspension as the road springs and subframe rubbers). Obviously these are strong, well-made cars but nothing is invincible.

I realise you may have the tyres fitted for appearance's sake, you will no doubt have found that unless you drive slowly everywhere, the car will be a little skittish through corners which are less than perfectly-surfaced and when the rain starts, any standing water soon slows you right down - where the original tyres would cut straight through.

There is mention elsewhere on here about 124 bodies beginning to creak and feel tired as the km pile on - these wheels and tyres will not help with the extra shock loadings, having effectively deleted one (very effective) part of the suspension system.

If you go quickly enough to create some body heel through faster corners, be very careful of the handling - the car could lose grip quite suddenly and visciously as the stiff, wide tyre tread rolls off the road surface, especially at the rear where there is less weight to squash the rubber to the road. If Mercedes' engineers had thought the cars would go better with this size of tyre, they would have specified them. Tyres and wheels sizes are very carefully calculated to give the best drive.

Hope this isn't sounding very dull and boring - but I drive pretty fast over a variety of roads (our local ones are fast, but have washboard surfaces and poor foundations) and know that my speed would be reduced quite seriously even in the dry with 45-profile, extra-wide rubber. Here's an interesting link to the fitment of wide tyres;

http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg3.html

[Viraat13]

Originally Posted by FlatOut

Very low profile ... to tyre sizes.

The car's suspension ... nothing is invincible.

I realise you ... cut straight through.

There is mention ... the suspension system.

If you go ... the best drive.

Hope this isn't sounding very dull and boring - but I drive pretty fast over a variety of roads (our local ones are fast, but have washboard surfaces and poor foundations) and know that my speed would be reduced quite seriously even in the dry with 45-profile, extra-wide rubber. Here's an interesting link to the fitment of wide tyres;

http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg3.html

Stiffer suspension, it's got those Bilstein sports shock absorbers too.

You do make a valid point about the excess wear it'll cause to the other components, but while this may sound silly, they look extraordinarily good. You see, there aren't many places here where you can take a fast turn. You never ever know what is after the turn, as the basic rule of driving here is — expect anything. And by that I mean, a pedestrian in the middle of the road at a blind turn, or a vehicle stopped in the fast (extreme right) lane too. You just never know, so the only time you can really go fast is when you're on a straight road.

I haven't actually driven the car enough to know what it's like in every situation. It's my fathers car, and I rarely drive it in any case. In the two months we've had the car, it's only done about 1000 kms. And very little of that in the rain.

I doubt I need to worry about the extra wear though. It's done 80,000 in 25 years. And my father only drives about 5,000 kms in a year!

Never a dull moment, I really don't mind these kind of discussions. But you mention it would slow you down in the dry, where as the website you linked me to states the opposite of that. Any particular reason you say that?

[FlatOut]

Originally Posted by Viraat13

Stiffer suspension, it's got those Bilstein sports shock absorbers too.

You do make a valid point about the excess wear it'll cause to the other components, but while this may sound silly, they look extraordinarily good.


Never a dull moment, I really don't mind these kind of discussions. But you mention it would slow you down in the dry, where as the website you linked me to states the opposite of that. Any particular reason you say that?

Viraat13, I admire your honesty - and that you haven't thrashed your Dad's car mercilessly around the countryside! Any pics? - can't see the car in your team-bhp online garage.

With stiffer springs and Bilstein dampers there is less chance of sudden and unpredictable break-away with your wheels and tyres - but this is still a huge danger with any car fitted with non-standard, significantly lower profile and wider tyres as cornering speeds rise.

I'm pleased you don't mind me pointing out the drawbacks of this jewelry on the car - mind you, it wasn't your money which bought it!

To answer your question, I think the page I pointed you to may mention that extremes to what is the manufacturer's choice will adversely affect cornering. Also to keep the explanations simple, they don't introduce the idea of surface imperfections or individual cars' suspension, to keep things as simple and clear as possible.

There are two problems in the dry. Firstly: camber changes, poor foundations and larger bumps would highlight the inability of a very low profile tyre to mould its tread to the road when it isn't flat. The wider the tyre, the more of a problem this becomes - there will be a shifting contact patch loading area, from the full width of the tread to much narrower sections of it. Think steam-roller (wide, iron wheels) compared with a motorbike (narrow, compliant tyres).
Secondly: a 'washboard surface' demands a lot of the suspension as speeds build, to maintain the maximum tread contact/pressure/adhesion. With very low profile tyres you have largely got rid of the part of the suspension which usually would absorb these shallow lateral ridges - which are typically up to 2 or 3 cm in amplitude (but can be a lot more on non-tarmac surfaces). This gives the spring/damper/bushing (it is often the bushing which takes up the job) a headache, making it less able to cope with everything else expected of it. In the worst case, the resonant frequencies of the very low sidewall work against the natural resonances in the springs and bushings (which are tuned to a different tyre), creating a situation where the tyres may skip from crest to crest as speeds rise. The carbible page you read also describes the loss of directional stability as tyre width rises, so this is another part of the viscious circle of this reduction of grip and stability.

You can imagine what happens on a slippery surface, even without the added hazard (amplified with wide tyres) of poorly-drained roads, puddles and water crossing a road at a camber change.

I imagine your experience would be a lot worse without your high-quality Bilstein damping. If there is one component which makes the single biggest difference to the way a car goes at speed, it is the suspension dampers. Good quality tyres make a massive difference, too.

[Viraat13]

Originally Posted by FlatOut

Viraat13, I admire your ... team-bhp online garage.

With stiffer springs ... cornering speeds rise.

I'm pleased you don't mind me pointing out the drawbacks of this jewelry on the car - mind you, it wasn't your money which bought it!

There are two ... with a motorbike (narrow, compliant tyres).
Secondly: a 'washboard ... grip and stability.

You can imagine ... a camber change.

I imagine your ... a massive difference, too.

I haven't got enough pictures to put up in a gallery. I shall take a few when the weather is good, and then put them up, I suppose. To be honest, I'm never allowed to drive his cars on my own. I never drove the E220 on my own till it was handed to me.

Again, our road conditions are no where near good enough to even get to 50% of the cars cornering ability. There is no scope for it if you're a careful driver, as I've mentioned before, you never know what is coming around the corner.

As far as the drawbacks of the jewellery are concerned, it was just love at first sight, so to speak, and then logic went out of the window. But don't you think that 195/65/R15 tyres are too narrow to harness 220 HP or so?

To be fair, the car hasn't really been pushed that hard, and nor has it been out on a long trip on the highway where you're constantly doing 3 digit speeds, so I haven't witnessed any of the situations you speak of. I'll find out eventually, and get back to you on it, I suppose.

I'll make sure I'm extra aware while it's raining though, let's see if I notice anything.

On the stock suspension set up, oversized tyres are utterly awful. I uprated the tyres to 205/65/R15 in my E250D, and it was a big mistake, maybe I should have tried 205/60/R15, but after the terrible ride and drive, I swapped them for the stock size after a 100 km. Never again.

[FlatOut]

Originally Posted by Viraat13

As far as the drawbacks of the jewellery are concerned, it was just love at first sight, so to speak, and then logic went out of the window. But don't you think that 195/65/R15 tyres are too narrow to harness 220 HP or so?

I thought you'd read that carbibles page! In which case you'll understand how, without going to extremes, making a tyre wider doesn't increase its contact patch size creating more stability but a little less cornering eagerness. It's a result of tyre pressure and the car's weight - a narrower tyre will spread the contact patch out in a more longitudinal pattern. But yes, with 220hp (and if I was regularly going to be driving on twisting roads above 110kph) I'd choose better dampers and 205/60/15s - still relatively tall and narrow by today's standards.

Originally Posted by Viraat13

On the stock suspension set up, oversized tyres are utterly awful. I uprated the tyres to 205/65/R15 in my E250D, and it was a big mistake, maybe I should have tried 205/60/R15, but after the terrible ride and drive, I swapped them for the stock size after a 100 km. Never again.

That's interesting - you sure the tyre pressures were right for the application? Or were they budget tyres? I'm surprised things were so awful with tyres which are just one step bigger in aspect ratio over the recommended 205/60s. You know that your speedometer would have been under-reading, so maybe you were going faster than you thought? Depending on the wheel rim width, it is possible that there was rather too much sidewall movement going on - which is in part alleviated by pressure adjustment. With cheap tyres, this would be as potentially unpleasant as a lack of sidewall. The difference in roadholding, noise, grip, steering response. ride and longevity between running on a set of Pirellis, Dunlops or Michelins and some budget Chinese tyres is vast.

[Viraat13]

Originally Posted by FlatOut

I thought you'd ... by today's standards.

That's interesting - you ... tyres is vast.

I had! I know the tyres I've got are wider than needed, but what I asked was if the stock size tyres are too narrow for the purpose. Anyway, I got my answer.

I used Yokohama A Drives. The steering felt really dead and vague, the ride was a little more bogged down and in general, the car didn't feel as good as it should have. But I'll add a rider, the steering and suspension was on it's last legs. It couldn't have lasted more than 8,000 or 10,000 kms more. But as soon as I switched to the stock size, everything was fine and dandy. The car felt as agile as a diesel W124 could, and was suddenly going through minor bumps and the like much better. I don't think I'm ever going to deviate from the stock size on the stock rims. 195/65/R15, always.

[DudeWithaFiat]

Hi all,

I'm going to look at a 1997 W124 250D with 1,62,000 km on it next week. Any tips on what to look for? Owner says the vehicle is in excellent condition. IIRC, the 1997s were built in India with India-specific specs?

Thank You.