[Technocrat]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Nokia CEO has actually given up without a fight with this deal. The situation was bad but still lot better then all other players in financial terms except may be apple and Samsung. They still had technical expertise , resources and money to stage a comeback.

Nokia was prime factor why Microsoft was unable to penetrate mobile market for whole of the decade despite minor success here and there.

In 2009 they had the right recipie to position Symbian at midrange and low end and Maemo for smartphone. In 2010 Nokia was forced to adopt an American CEO to placate the investors as if only US guy can fix the smartphone woes and they did lame step of not taking risk and continuing with Symbian for flagship N8.

In fact Nokia CEO is former Micorsoft guy and probably he can not think beyond his former employer for solution when solution was pretty much possible with in Nokia.


Now with this step Nokia is doing what Motorola did by abandoning internal R&D. Look at Motorola today it was saved from financial crisis and split up in to Motorola mobility but it is pale shadow of what it was.

My friend forwarded me something interesting check this link

MSFT: MICROSOFT CORP Profile
-ownership

Scroll down for 8th largest individual shareholder in MSFT.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by 2500cc

Any clue why the Nokia employees were not happy with the deal ?

Originally Posted by srishiva

You mean any other reason other than losing their jobs?

You mean having everything they have worked for, and are working for chucked out with the garbage? Been there: it is not fun.

What possible reason could a Nokia employee, especially development staff, have to be happy?

[pramodkumar]

Guys,

I bought a Nokia E 63, last december. The main reason for buying this was to be able to use the GPS function. I cannot use this in kerala, i have seen it showing me maps in chennai, never used it for navigation though. Can some one help me in finding how this thing works. I am extremely lazy hence technically challenged when it comes to gadgets. I love the phone my friend and fellow bhpian clevermax has, all i know its a HTC, i have seen the phone 3rice and held it twice but have no idea what model number it is. Please help.


Pramod

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by Technocrat

My friend forwarded me something interesting check this link

MSFT: MICROSOFT CORP Profile
-ownership

Scroll down for 8th largest individual shareholder in MSFT.

WOW, this calls for some clarifications on conflict of interests.

This is interesting : http://nokiaplanb.com/

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by Technocrat

Scroll down for 8th largest individual shareholder in MSFT.

That explains a lot and now we can understand why :-D

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

WOW, this calls for some clarifications on conflict of interests.

This is interesting : Nokia Plan B

this plan B is clearly from Finnish employees whose main emphasis is ending global R&D centers. These guys have no clue from where 50% of Nokia revenues were coming and why

Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR

Google at least has 100; in Linux, there is just one - Linus Torvalds.

He decides what goes into mainline kernel tree. Others have their own trees.

@backseat it is not correct , You need to compare the whole system not just kernel. Linus is maintainer of main kernel tree but that is not what Linux as a whole is.

Various processor trees have their own maintainers and at times they do not simply bother to push features to main tree because it is not relevent.

And with in each processor architecture there are trees of each SOC like ARM has trees of OMAP , Qcom etc and then each of them have maintainer for every subsytem like FS , ALSA etc.

Apart from kernel there are so many things in user space without which Linux cannot work as system which have their own maintainers example Glibc, udev , busybox etc. then there are communities and maintainers for tools like gcc , gdb etc.

So total count of these maintainers itself will run nearto 1000 and there are so many companies which contribute the code ( foot soldiers).
Compared to this google team size ( approx 70) is small number and they are driven by a pre-defined strategy unlike Linus who is driven by what is good for Kernel , And if you compare this team size to a team required for completely internally developed platform will be surprised. You need to multiply this by 100 at-least . So overall huge savings.

[navin]

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

Negatives:
1. No root access on command line
2. After market accessories not easily available

1. Will my wife notice this? Is it less stable or slower?
2. What accessories does one need. Headsets are bluetoooth. Charger is micro USB which means she can share my BB Torch charger na?

Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR

Google at least has 100; in Linux, there is just one - Linus Torvalds.

Wont that make it more stable.

Originally Posted by Technocrat

MSFT: MICROSOFT CORP Profile
-ownership
Scroll down for 8th largest individual shareholder in MSFT.

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

WOW, this calls for some clarifications on conflict of interests.]

Who is David Treadwell for Nokia? I am confused.

Originally Posted by amitk26

@backseat it is not correct , You need to compare the whole system not just kernel. Linus is maintainer of main kernel tree but that is not what Linux as a whole is..

I find systems written by small teams to be more stable. Even simple shells like the Bourne Shell and C Sheel (for Unix) were written by just one man (Stephen Bourne and Bill "Sun Microsystems" Joy).

[vvrchandra]

Originally Posted by pramodkumar

Guys,

I bought a Nokia E 63, last december. The main reason for buying this was to be able to use the GPS function. I cannot use this in kerala, i have seen it showing me maps in chennai, never used it for navigation though. Can some one help me in finding how this thing works. I am extremely lazy hence technically challenged when it comes to gadgets. I love the phone my friend and fellow bhpian clevermax has, all i know its a HTC, i have seen the phone 3rice and held it twice but have no idea what model number it is. Please help.


Pramod

As far as Nokia E63 is concerned, it does not have any GPS.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by navin

I find systems written by small teams to be more stable. Even simple shells like the Bourne Shell and C Sheel (for Unix) were written by just one man (Stephen Bourne and Bill "Sun Microsystems" Joy).

And how exactly you find that ? Does any software vendor ever give out information on how many teams and developers worked on project ?

Routinely a hypothetical man-month figure is quoted which just means a team.

No OS including WP7 and iOS is written by one man or small team this is fact of life.

First unix shells were extremely simple program to write compared to modern GUIs of phones , They started as one man project but were stablized and made feature rich over the years by hundreds of people. They were neither stable nor powerful when they were one man project.

It is just a glamor and brand building that Apple Projects Steves Job is the man who is main architect or Bill gates or Steve Balmer is one who decides. Yes every company including mine has a top level autocratic boss who is the top decision maker but these decisions are conveyed to that boss in form of several comparison reports and easy to comprehend PPTs by underlings spread across various R&D

It is very similar to President of India inviting all the tenders for Central government or President of India commanding the Indian Army in a war being supreme commander

For your information a so called one man iOS has following components or base architecture for which several known teams work outside the company their details are out of scope of this thread.

[navin]

Originally Posted by amitk26

And how exactly you find that ?

Unix and Linux were both written by small teams and are much more stable than say Windows or even Apple's OS.

Big teams have to communicate across multiple levels and have to adhere to standard design principles and protocols. It is natural to have more errors when the teams are bigger.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by navin

1. Will my wife notice this? Is it less stable or slower?
2. What accessories does one need. Headsets are bluetoooth. Charger is micro USB which means she can share my BB Torch charger na?

Root access would not matter for a user (unless she prefers "shutdown -r now" to power button ).

Accessories like cell phone pouch,screen guard might not be as easy to find for this model in corner shops.

Originally Posted by navin

Who is David Treadwell for Nokia? I am confused.

I think we are looking at different tables, this one would have Stephen A. Elop.

Originally Posted by navin

I find systems written by small teams to be more stable.

I agree with that. Smaller teams working in close proximity find it easier.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by navin

Unix and Linux were both written by small teams and are much more stable than say Windows or even Apple's OS.

Big teams have to communicate across multiple levels and have to adhere to standard design principles and protocols. It is natural to have more errors when the teams are bigger.

Coming back to same point , When they were written by small teams they were not stable or usable. I remember Slackware Linux very well from my student days. Secondly Linus is just maintainer of top level kernel tree and Kernel code is a vital but small part of any OS as a whole.
A micro Kernel like L4 or Linux Scheduler can be written by a small team or single person but you need millions of lines of code to make it usable by end user until end user is a programmer willing to work with a JTAG or telnet.

Linux became stable by constant support of big teams particularly from IBM for Linux in Server market and host of ARM SOC manufacturers for embedded market.
These teams are not small by any stretch of imagination they are spread across geographies and communicate over conf calls and emails. Many of these are based in India but you will never hear or listen to them as they are captive R&D units.
FYI I work in a 400 people Linux group here in India and I know there are many such groups in several companies in India and Bay Area in US and also in some other geographies.

[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

WOW, this calls for some clarifications on conflict of interests.

This is interesting : Nokia Plan B

The original link posted by technocrat is not redirecting properly for me; I need to reduce my browser's security settings. So, I guess from other comments that the links shows that NOkia CEO is 8th largest share holder in Microsoft Corporation. If, so, this deal, and erosion of value it brings for Nokia's shareholders, serves them right.

Originally Posted by amitk26

Apart from kernel there are so many things in user space without which Linux cannot work as system which have their own maintainers example Glibc, udev , busybox etc. then there are communities and maintainers for tools like gcc , gdb etc./

These are not part of the Linux Kernel. The glibc, is GNU C library. gdb is GNU debugger. busybox and udev are different project. Udev is closely related to the kernel; and busybox provides tiny environment to make hardware booted with the linux kernel usable.

I will not comment on rest of the comments, I am not too expert on all that. And this is thread is not about Linux the kernel. Or operating systems which use the Linux kernel.

Originally Posted by amitk26

And how exactly you find that ? Does any software vendor ever give out information on how many teams and developers worked on project ?

For all software which part of the GNU operating system, and non-GNU-related Free/open source software, the concerned source files are available, and they will contain details of each modification and its origin(s). No clue about closed / non-FOSS software.

Edit:- hey!!! Nokia Plan B is already off!!!

Edit 2:- nokiaplanx.com site is real funny; the deal promises to generate more jokes than Rajnikanth.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Coming back to same point , When they were written by small teams they were not stable or usable.

Unix was stable and usable. It was written by people who made it stable and usable, secure and efficient. It was written by people who did not have to answer to a marketing team. In fact, they could not have been very much concerned with sales at all, as AT&T were not allowed to sell it!

A reminder: Unix was a multi-tasking, multi-user operating system before Windows was even thought of by Gates and Co.

Linux is a different, and much, much more diverse kettle of fish. I have to admit that I have little understanding of how the Linux community works. Also Gnu, the Free Software Foundation --- and the many, many others who provide the Linux software that we, the users, actually see on the screens in front of us, as opposed to the core of the OS, which we mostly only glance from start-up and shutdown messages that scroll up the screen so fast nobody sees them. I used to sit and read that stuff as machines booted: these days, I don't understand it anyway!

[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Unix was stable and usable.

Why the past tense here? You better edit before time runs out. Just joking.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Unix was stable and usable. It was written by people who made it stable and usable, secure and efficient. It was written by people who did not have to answer to a marketing team. In fact, they could not have been very much concerned with sales at all, as AT&T were not allowed to sell it!

A reminder: Unix was a multi-tasking, multi-user operating system before Windows was even thought of by Gates and Co.y!

Sigh ..Did I ever say it is not stable or it was not stable in 1978 or 1973
When is the question ?
The basic premise of Navin's assertion was that OS written by small team are stable. The stable industrial Unix was not a small one man or small team project at all.

Every prototype starts as a one or two man project and at that point when it is programming in small it remains largely unusable as the Unix was when Ken Thompsan started on it in first avatar Multics on PDP7 mini computer.

Slowly by mid 70s it was stabilized and used on many big machines and over the year various unixes flourished including BSD in early 80s which is present in iPhones till today

Again by no chance the stable rock solid unix we know today can be called a small team or one man effort , It is fruit of labor of hundreds of people for years working in various campuses and labs across the geography ( mainly USA)

Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR

T


These are not part of the Linux Kernel. The glibc, is GNU C library. gdb is GNU debugger. busybox and udev are different project. Udev is closely related to the kernel; and busybox provides tiny environment to make hardware booted with the linux kernel usable.

I will not comment on rest of the comments, I am not too expert on all that. And this is thread is not about Linux the kernel. Or operating systems which use the Linux kernel.

You compared a less then 100 people Android team to one man kernel main tree in your post and thats why I posted. GNU Linux OS just does not mean Linux Kernel and that I was highlighting
To effectively compare them you need to compare GNU Linux Platform with Android because Android maintenance mostly is about the tools and middleware and not the Kernel itself ( very little).

glibc gets replaced with bionic C Busybox gets replaced with toolbox but the functionlites are same.

So all I was pointed was apples to oranges comparison. Linux as you know it is much much bigger then kernel main trees. And all theories of small team or one man show are no longer true at-least since 1995.