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Old 3rd May 2023, 12:52   #271
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I think Honda's reluctance is probably because they are confident of their 1.5L i-VTEC performance. I have driven Hyundai 1.6 Petrol (1st gen Creta) and I find it much better than the current 1.5L engine. I rate current Hyundai 1.5L engine as poor. Skoda/VW don't have a NA engine to compete with therefore they are banking on their Turbo Petrol, which are brilliant engines (the best I must say).

Honda, globally, appears to be in sleeping mode in everything they were pioneered just 2 decades ago.
The issue is with "Direct Induction" Technology.

European cars use "DI" and are more fuel efficient and generate more power.

But DI has its own issues, where in the Oil/grime gets accumulated on intake valves, which will cause Fuel efficiency and performance issues down the line, unless the engine head is opened and cleaned. Such engines when left unmaintained, could even cause engine failures.

Suzuki and Honda customer base throughout the world see their cars as Durable and Long running and use them accordingly. Shifting to DI directly would not just impact the brand permanently, but also cause a significant business loss, which they are against. This is the reason why Suzuki is more interested to cut weight of car in india than adopting to DI engines. Juut for Reliability. So is the case with Honda, in india.

Now, you may ask when VW and skoda can shift to DI engines, why not Suzuki and Honda? The customer base of VW/Skoda drive a bit less and are much professional and their average yearly running will not exceed 10K for the majority, so the companies can get away with any potential issues occurring before 5/6 year mark.

Toyota uses D4D, which uses port and direct injection, which is patented tech and hence their engines are better when compared to only DI engines. So, Exclude Big T from the list.

Suzuki and Honda are not reluctant. They are just protecting their business. Whereas VW, Skoda and a few others are trying to grab market share.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 13:16   #272
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re: Honda's new SUV for India | EDIT: Named Elevate

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Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss View Post
The issue is with "Direct Induction" Technology.

European cars use "DI" and are more fuel efficient and generate more power.
DI means direct injection. Fuel is injected directly into the cylinder, instead of the intake manifold. The turbo petrols from VW-Skoda, Hyundai-Kia, Mahindra and Suzuki all feature direct injection. Tataís upcoming new generation of petrol engines will also have direct injection. This is not something new or pathbreaking, and has been in use in India for many years now.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 13:59   #273
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Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
DI means direct injection. Fuel is injected directly into the cylinder, instead of the intake manifold. The turbo petrols from VW-Skoda, Hyundai-Kia, Mahindra and Suzuki all feature direct injection. Tataís upcoming new generation of petrol engines will also have direct injection. This is not something new or pathbreaking, and has been in use in India for many years now.
My bad! Somehow missed it. Lots of stuff to remember in cars, finance and what not.. Let me correct it.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 15:03   #274
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re: Honda's new SUV for India | EDIT: Named Elevate

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Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss View Post
But DI has its own issues, where in the Oil/grime gets accumulated on intake valves, which will cause Fuel efficiency and performance issues down the line, unless the engine head is opened and cleaned. Such engines when left unmaintained, could even cause engine failures.
Yes, this is caused by vapour blow-by, causing carbon buildup on the valves which stays there since there is no fuel flowing over the valves like with port injection.

However, manufacturers (other than Toyota too) have now started to use both. Take VW's EA888 TSI for example. Port injection is used in conjunction with direct injection in order to reduce particulates in the exhaust as well as carbon buildup on the valves; something that is a concern with purely direct injection engines, like you mentioned. I expect direct injection engines to become more reliable in the future as manufacturers develop them further. The second most popular brand, Hyundai, also uses them in India! It started way back with the fluidic Sonata and its GDI engine if I'm not wrong.

Honda already uses turbo-petrols abroad and so does Toyota. Suzuki has its Boosterjet engines too. I guess it's only a matter of time before we start seeing them bring this technology to our shores. Emissions regulations are making it harder and harder to sell a non-hybrid naturally aspirated engine with port injection without significantly compromising performance.

Quote:
Suzuki and Honda are not reluctant. They are just protecting their business. Whereas VW, Skoda and a few others are trying to grab market share.
That is true, they do have a reputation to protect. I also think it's more to do with them being relatively unwilling to adopt the latest technology without extensively stress-testing it first. For example, Toyota released their first few direct injection engines much later compared to the likes of VAG and BMW.

This is just my opinion though, I'm open to corrections.

Last edited by GForceEnjoyer : 3rd May 2023 at 15:09.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 16:42   #275
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re: Honda's new SUV for India | EDIT: Named Elevate

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For example, Toyota released their first few direct injection engines much later compared to the likes of VAG and BMW.

This is just my opinion though, I'm open to corrections.
I believe Toyota had launched GDI engines in the mainstream market a few years before the Germans. Though it was in their Lexus and high end Toyotas instead of their bread and butter models. And I believe it was Nissan or Mitsubishi who had brought the first mainstream GDI engine tech in the 90s itself which was licensed to other companies.

Ofcourse, Toyota didn't make GDI mainstream until they had the port injection/direct injection hybrid tech under the D4S moniker to address the carbon build up in pure direct injection engines.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 17:04   #276
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re: Honda's new SUV for India | EDIT: Named Elevate

I have booked the Honda SUV with Peninsular Honda , Trivandrum . The SA informed me today that dealers had a meeting with Honda and they were showcased the SUV images. I had asked for the powertrain options but he had no idea. I was assured that hybrid will be launched in the initial phase itself . But as others have mentioned , now I am thinking if it would be a wise decision to sell my 4th Gen Honda City and again get the same NA engine . Eagerly waiting for the launch .
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Old 3rd May 2023, 17:51   #277
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Originally Posted by GForceEnjoyer View Post

However, manufacturers (other than Toyota too) have now started to use both. Take VW's EA888 TSI for example. Port injection is used in conjunction with direct injection in order to reduce particulates in the exhaust as well as carbon buildup on the valves; something that is a concern with purely direct injection engines, like you mentioned. I expect direct injection engines to become more reliable in the future as manufacturers develop them further. The second most popular brand, Hyundai, also uses them in India! It started way back with the fluidic Sonata and its GDI engine if I'm not wrong.
As per what i have read, the big T was not willing to share patents of its D4D, but this was pre covid era news. I am not sure of the latest info on it and who all can use it. I haven't seen anyone else advertise this too. Maybe i need to watch much closely.

The future is not port & direct injection. Its Mazda's SkyActive-X, in which the petrol would be burnt by compression and not by Spark plugs, which ensures the engines works like a regular diesel motor on petrol. Much higher efficiency when compared to any spark plug based petrol car.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 18:05   #278
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re: Honda's new SUV for India | EDIT: Named Elevate

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Ofcourse, Toyota didn't make GDI mainstream until they had the port injection/direct injection hybrid tech under the D4S moniker to address the carbon build up in pure direct injection engines.
Indeed, making it mainstream is what I attempted to refer to by "released", but didn't word clearly enough. Time and again, I have to respect Toyota's commitment to making reliable cars!

[
Quote:
And I believe it was Nissan or Mitsubishi who had brought the first mainstream GDI engine tech in the 90s itself which was licensed to other companies.
I stand corrected. That is indeed true; according to Wikipedia, it was in fact Mitsubishi who mass-produced it with the Mitsubishi Galant being the first mass-market car to use a GDI engine.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 18:16   #279
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re: Honda's new SUV for India | EDIT: Named Elevate

Another Honda car, another discussion on turbo vs N/A...

Fact: Honda sells turbo cars in similar climates as ours with air-to-water intercoolers for added cooling

Fact: Honda's own 1L turbo produces as much torque as their 1.8L N/A and as much power as their 1.5L N/A at a much lower rpm than both

Fact: Honda has been at the turbo petrol game for 8 years now, and are pretty good at it.

Fact: Even our humble Maruti will soon be locally producing direct injection turbo petrols.

Opinion: Honda's reluctance to release a turbo petrol is not due to NVH, driveability, reliability or any such reason. It is simply a reluctance to invest in the Indian market due to perceived risks and low profit expectations.

That said, they need this new SUV more than they need turbos right now. Hope this SUV turns their fortunes around.

Bonus Fact: People drive turbo cars everyday in B2B traffic without ramming into the car in front due to the "turbo kick"
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Old 3rd May 2023, 18:40   #280
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re: Honda's new SUV for India | EDIT: Named Elevate

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Originally Posted by GBX View Post

Opinion: Honda's reluctance to release a turbo petrol is not due to NVH, driveability, reliability or any such reason. It is simply a reluctance to invest in the Indian market due to perceived risks and low profit expectations.
This! I am surprised at the reasons given by some members justifying Honda and their decision of sticking with NA only in India(not counting the diesels). Heck, they offer turbo petrols in Pakistan as well.


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Bonus Fact: People drive turbo cars everyday in B2B traffic without ramming into the car in front due to the "turbo kick"
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Old 3rd May 2023, 19:50   #281
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re: Honda's new SUV for India | EDIT: Named Elevate

I will be keenly following this launch. Am pretty happy with my Jazz currently which just completed 4 years but if this product actually establishes itself even like the AMAZE, it would be a great option to upgrade to.

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Originally Posted by AYP View Post
This! I am surprised at the reasons given by some members justifying Honda and their decision of sticking with NA only in India(not counting the diesels). Heck, they offer turbo petrols in Pakistan as well.
I don't think anybody is justifying their move of sticking to NA. These are just inferences looking at their lackluster attitude towards our market.

Last edited by vb-saan : 4th May 2023 at 13:32. Reason: As requested
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Old 3rd May 2023, 19:51   #282
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re: Honda's new SUV for India | EDIT: Named Elevate

I think Honda has identified a good name in Elevate. Where I think they are missing the trick is with not introducing hybrid at launch. The indian Automotive industry is going through the transition from petrol to EV and hybrid will be perfect fit. I think they are missing a trick here if they are not launching hybrid along with petrol powertrain. Why wait when you have the tech?
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Old 3rd May 2023, 21:19   #283
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re: Honda's new SUV for India | EDIT: Named Elevate

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I will be keenly following this launch. Am pretty happy with my Jazz currently which just completed 4 years but if this product actually establishes itself even like the AMAZE, it would be a great option to upgrade to.
I am looking to move from 2010 Honda Jazz which recently completed 2 lakh KM's. Hopefully, this will be a good product.

In the meantime, still holding onto my Seltos and Creta booking.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 23:21   #284
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Other than people in this forum and automotive journalists i haven't met anyone that has a complaint about the current 1.5 i vtec engine.

So i guess that could be the reason Honda is sticking to it.
Why invest unwanted money to satisfy a vocal minority.
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Old 4th May 2023, 01:45   #285
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re: Honda's new SUV for India | EDIT: Named Elevate

My two cents is that when it come to mass segment then people mostly arenít really concerned with what the engine configuration is but the fuel type and how much efficiency they can get out of it.

People can have preference of Petrol/Diesel/CNG/Hybrid or EV but rarely has anyone ever come and suggested that X car is 1.0 Turbo engine and Y is 1.2 NA Engine and they are concerned about it. Hence, Honda sticking with 1.5 iVtec isnít really a matter of concern but not offering a Diesel option alongside might affect them.

Few factors which generally makes or breaks a car in Indian car industry are :
  1. Looks/Road presence : This matters to us a lot. Specially in this day and age. Thar is not selling like hot cakes because we need 4*4 but because of its imposing looks and road presence. One of the main reason why Taigun/Kushaq couldnít really make a dent in Korean twins sales was that it barely looked like a ďSUVĒ but charged the amount that you would pay for a SUV. This upcoming SUV from Honda needs to look the part, I mean it can Atleast be as big as Creta or Seltos?
  2. Feature Set :- The more the merrier. The perceived value you get out of a car for Indian car market is to get more out of your money for the features that you can see. Even if the car is built to perfection but if it doesnít have features being offered by competitors it wonít work.
    People want Sunroof, ADAS or 360 degree camera when they donít even have a real world scenario usage for it. Itís just that since one brand is offering it another should as well.

The above two factors when combined gives you your ďVFMĒ. Indians arenít stingy itís just that they want maximum value out of their investment per se. Honda brand name carries a value and I think people can pay for it as long as those potential customer donít walk out of Honda showroom into a Hyundai/Kia showroom and get a list handed to them by the grim salesman at Korean twins which contains a list of features that the Honda SUV doesnít have.

Cheers!
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