[condor]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

.. I know from a user perspective how comfortable each one is.

Sad to hear of inconsistent build quality on the Storme,

The GX I have is absolutely spot on in terms of fit and finish,

Tooo Early to say that there is inconsistent build quality on the Storme. While you have a Dicor GX, you are a user of the stated models, the others who have commented on "bad finish / comfort /space" have done so after just a TD or two. Any statement of build quality is best made by owners, or atleast after owners have given their feedback after sufficient usage.

[lohithrao]

Have to completely disagree on this, Having driven my Safari for over 6k kms, mostly on winding roads i can confidently say this machine is fantastic when it comes to handling, driving long distances whatever the road conditions maybe, both the driver and the passengers dont experience any discomfort/fatigue at all..

And i have been comfortably maintaining the same speeds what i used to maintain on my previous cars(Honda City(OHC) and Fiat Adventure) on winding roads...

And after TDing Storme i can only say it is a notch better then the previous gen Safari in almost all terms, infact Storme loves rough/bit uneven roads thanks to the stiff suspension setup you can comfortably cruise at higher speeds.

Originally Posted by parsh

That I can agree on a smooth road with least resistance and road less curvy.

[parsh]

Originally Posted by lohithrao

Have to completely disagree on this, Having driven my Safari for over 6k kms, mostly on winding roads i can confidently say this machine is fantastic when it comes to handling, driving long distances whatever the road conditions maybe, both the driver and the passengers dont experience any discomfort/fatigue at all..

And i have been comfortably maintaining the same speeds what i used to maintain on my previous cars(Honda City(OHC) and Fiat Adventure) on winding roads...

And after TDing Storme i can only say it is a notch better then the previous gen Safari in almost all terms, infact Storme loves rough/bit uneven roads thanks to the stiff suspension setup you can comfortably cruise at higher speeds.

I and the passengers too did not have very good experience on the winding and bumpy roads at high speeds and it stays with me. Having said that, the handling and ride of Storme does seem way better than the older generation definitely. But I did not feel it anywhere close to carlike. I am seriously surprised to see it being compared to the drive of OHC on winding roads. I know, seen and experienced OHC's capabilities especially on old Mumbai-Pune highway consistently.

Having said that, there cannot be a definitive decision on that and it is subject to one's liking, experiences and perceptions given how each one likes to drive.

So Lohit, my friend, we have to agree to disagree at best

[lohithrao]

Note from Mod: There are several spelling & grammatical errors in your posts. This negatively affects the board experience for other readers.

Kindly ensure that you proof-read your posts prior to submission. Also, it would be a good idea to use spell-checkers.

[parsh]

The carlike relation came in due to comparison brought in for the speeds with the cars and especially OHC and nothing more. OHC was and is a different animal altogether. One can find similar traits in the Civic.

Even if you do the speeds of the cars, the handling and ride can never be same like the cars and nobody can expect carlike behavior from the SUVs especially on twisty winding roads. However, Innova built on the same ladder on frame chassis of Fortuner shows the carlike traits even at those high speeds through most of the terrains.

Fortuner's ride is well known and definitely bumpy as much as other SUVs and possibly more than some as well, however, the handling is way better than any other in comparison. When not needed for its capabilities and when people can/want to choose, they would mostly choose Innova over it. What matters for Fortuner is that it is a Quality Tank built to last which not many can boast of. But ofcourse that still does not discount Toyota having its days ripping customers off the premium for it. Those who understand its value equation and can go for it, go for Fortuner than any other considerations.

[n.devdath]

I took a test drive of a Storme last Saturday at the Prerana Motors showroom, Lalbagh road and here are my findings.

Vehicle driven: Tata Safari Storme VX 4X2 Urban Bronze.
Odo reading: 2582kms.
Duration of test drive: 30 minutes.
Location: City driving only.

+ves that continue to impress:

1. Silent, vibe free engine.
2. Light clutch.
3. Effective brakes.
4. Cabin space for 5 and ergonomics.
5. Fantastic turning radius.
6. Unparalleled ride comfort.

-ves that I observed:

1. The trim had already begun to show age. The gear knob especially, looked like it had seen more than 25k kms. The leather had worn off on the edges and the boot too was in bad shape.

2. Cabin rattles. Even at 2nd and 3rd gears and speeds less than 40kmph on tarmac, I could hear quite a few rattles in the cabin. My hunch was the middle row seat, or the rear door panel.

3. The ac blower performance was, well, sub par compared to Mahindra Scorpio. Fan speeds and the compressor capacity need to be improved. The summers haven't yet set in completely and yet, I was not satisfied.

4. The steering wheel does touch the knees when you clamber aboard the vehicle. Not a big issue for me but it exists nevertheless.

5. Front power windows continue to wail and whine when pulling up the glass. This is a known Safari gremlin. They need bigger motors.

About the dealer:

1. The laid back attitude of the sales personnel there. When I asked them about the improvements made to the Storme's cabin quality compared to the older Safari, the reply was a pretty cold "It is much better than the previous one Saar, they have tried to do some stuff at least." Tata: It is high time you infused some new found enthusiasm and excitement into your people about your products which have actually improved.

2. I was told that Prerana does not have a 4WD test drive vehicle. With Tata going all guns on FB about the journeys to be accomplished on a Storme, I d expect them to keep a 4WD test drive vehicle at all their dealers.

3. The TD vehicle was dirty inside and the low fuel indicator was flashing. Such practices can lead to customer dissatisfaction and pre mature wear and tear of parts resulting in statements like "Sir, our TD vehicle is under repair." Not good for Tata at this moment.

Originally Posted by Lukeskywalker

do update as you clock more miles.

Hari, you might want to provide this feedback to Prerana.

[g_prajeesh]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

1. The laid back attitude of the sales personnel there. When I asked them about the improvements made to the Storme's cabin quality compared to the older Safari, the reply was a pretty cold "It is much better than the previous one Saar, they have tried to do some stuff at least." Tata: It is high time you infused some new found enthusiasm and excitement into your people about your products which have actually improved.

2. I was told that Prerana does not have a 4WD test drive vehicle. With Tata going all guns on FB about the journeys to be accomplished on a Storme, I d expect them to keep a 4WD test drive vehicle at all their dealers.

3. The TD vehicle was dirty inside and the low fuel indicator was flashing. Such practices can lead to customer dissatisfaction and pre mature wear and tear of parts resulting in statements like "Sir, our TD vehicle is under repair." Not good for Tata at this moment.

Hari, you might want to provide this feedback to Prerana.

This is the exact issue with Tata. They have good Product. But the dealers make things in wrong side. When I had a test drive here in Bangalore, it gave you bad impression; lot of rattles and interior were not maintained well. When I went to Kerala and had a TD, none of the issue came up. I purchased the car and over 1250 KM, there are no issues till now. The dealers doesn't maintain the car properly and added with customers abuse to its extend. So the dealer has to maintain it. When I asked the sale guy of XUV500 to take the car to a bad terrain, he told me that Sir XUV is not for that kind of BAD road. I appreciated the guy as he knows the limit and where the boundary is.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

I took a test drive of a Storme last Saturday at the Prerana Motors showroom, Lalbagh road and here are my findings.

Originally Posted by g_prajeesh

This is the exact issue with Tata. They have good Product. But the dealers make things in wrong side.

Well, things certainly seem to be improving Prajeesh, both at Tata Motors, by virtue of their products and, more specifically, at Prerana Motors.

After my previous post quoted above, I got a call from Ranganath, the Head of Sales for Prerana Motors.

Post his apologies for the kind of experience that I had, he asked me:

"Sir, if you wrote what you experienced, why did you tick all the "YES" boxes on your test drive feedback form?"



I was taken aghast since I did not sign or fill any post test drive feedback forms at all. In fact, since I had asked for the Storme to be sent home in a few days for a detailed test drive, I had not even taken the brochure and the price list offered.

But Ranganath was confident and told me "Sir, I have your feedback form in front of me with your signatures and if you give me your email id, I will mail a scanned copy of it to you."

But I had my doubts. So, I proceeded to recall the events step by step with Ranganath on the phone. After some time, he told me that he had the gentleman (not really a gent though) who had handled my query with him and wanted to put me on speaker to which I gladly agreed.

As I began to recall each and every step of my visit, that gentleman got nervous and confessed to Ranganath that he had forged my signatures on the test drive form and filled the entries on his own.

Ranganath profusely apologized and told me that he would do the needful to set things right and promised to try his best to get a 4WD TD car for me in a couple of days. He very honestly accepted the fact that whatever happened was very unfortunate and shameful.

To sum it up, I have two takeaways from the incident:

1. Like Tata Motors, at least, at the top, are trying their damnedest to improve their products and processes, at least one dealer, Prerana Motors, Bangalore too, at its top, has the urge to improve.

2. This improvement however, will be incomplete and ineffective unless it streams down to every worker at every assembly line and every helper/sales rep at the dealer.

This is what will bring Tata Motors back to its rightful place in the Indian auto industry...Amen.

[condor]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

As I began to recall each and every step of my visit, that gentleman got nervous and confessed to Ranganath that he had forged my signatures on the test drive form and filled the entries on his own.

1. Like Tata Motors, at least, at the top, are trying their damnedest to improve their products and processes, at least one dealer, Prerana Motors, Bangalore too, at its top, has the urge to improve.

2. This improvement however, will be incomplete and ineffective unless it streams down to every worker at every assembly line and every helper/sales rep at the dealer.

An incident like this should definitely help get the message across to the staff. And yes, I agree from personal experience that Prerana Motors has been working from the top, downwards, to improve their services.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by condor

An incident like this should definitely help get the message across to the staff. And yes, I agree from personal experience that Prerana Motors has been working from the top, downwards, to improve their services.

I believe its not just Prerana motors or any such dealers, the whole Tata motors as a company should take this opportunity and start sacking incompetent people left right and center. Too many sarkari type babus floating around, doing nothing except taking home pay each month, no accountability and responsibility.
Maruti style hire and fire and usage of contract labour will keep the workforce under check. Too many people taking advantage of the fact that Tatas dont fire anyone.

[condor]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Too many sarkari type babus floating around, doing nothing except taking home pay each month, no accountability and responsibility..

Not really - they have their targets to meet. Sales definitely has, and even service advisors have their targets.

But what is not acceptable is the forged feedback.

[jp1]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

But Ranganath was confident and told me "Sir, I have your feedback form in front of me with your signatures and if you give me your email id, I will mail a scanned copy of it to you."

....
Ranganath profusely apologized and told me that he would do the needful to set things right and promised to try his best to get a 4WD TD car for me in a couple of days. He very honestly accepted the fact that whatever happened was very unfortunate and shameful.


This is what will bring Tata Motors back to its rightful place in the Indian auto industry...Amen.

I had a brief conversation with Mr. Ranganath while taking delivery of a Nano and he was insisting that I tell him frankly overall experience with the test drive, booking and delivery experience. I said it was quite pleasant, but I just told him that the number plates were not ready which they promised to get it to my home the next day. But Ranganath took the sales guy to task for not informing me the same in advance.

In fact I had a negative perception about Tata and its vehicles and I never thought I ever would buy a Tata, but with the small wonder Nano, all that changed.

People like Ranganath can make big difference for TATA

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by condor

Not really - they have their targets to meet. Sales definitely has, and even service advisors have their targets.

But what is not acceptable is the forged feedback.

No, i am talking about their famous quality control, why should door panels be loose, why must they forget to tighten nuts and bolts, why should mechanics dismantle 20 screws and then put back only 10? If this is not sheer laziness then I dont know what is...

[manolin]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Maruti style hire and fire and usage of contract labour will keep the workforce under check. Too many people taking advantage of the fact that Tatas dont fire anyone.

There are lots of assumptions (unless you know otherwise?) you have made in this post. Maruti hire and fire for plant workers is not based on performance - it is purely being used as a coercive mechanism to enforce longer work hours at lesser pay. This is something which is not only not good for the contract labour ( permanent employees who do the same work are paid more) , but is very close to being something which goes against the spirit of the law applicable (simple principles of equal pay for equal work).

If Tata doesn't do all that - then more power to Tata.

On a different point to the above - Quality control is not something which happens by hiring and firing and taking people on short term contracts - if anything, the workforce will be more unsettled, and any training/learning is not carried over to the next batch. Let us think this through - as far as I am aware, car manufacturing is one of the most automated businesses. The only places where workers come into the picture is in the fittings - which have to be done manually. With respect to Tata Motors, the problem is three fold - (i) their fittings are not done with rigour and consistency (leading things to fall apart, and come lose), (ii) their parts which would have been sourced from a component manufacturer fail very regularly, and (iii) their service is not good enough, relatively speaking, to address the deficiencies.

Point no (ii) above can be addressed by strict contractual quality assurance requirements from the vendors. Whatever testing critereon that Tata is using is clearly not enough. I don't know if this is being done, but in this age of computerised records, it is very easy to highlight the supplier vendor for a part which keeps failing in service records. They need to come down on such vendors, blacklist them from all Tata activities.

Point (i) - How to motivate your factory floor employees? This is an MBA course question To me this same question should be relevant across all factory floors in all industries - how do you get guys who are paid very little with no incentives, to perform a repeatitive task with consistency and rigour. The answers to this will be different from each person to whom it is asked. My philosophical bent will make me say that training, ethos in the company, and responsibility, pride and leadership that the company manages to evoke in the workers will be the best way to solve this. So if Tata Motors is a quality control disaster, it is the failure of the management, no one else.

Point (iii) - same as point (i) on a much smaller level, with each dealership being the management.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by manolin

On a different point to the above - Quality control is not something which happens by hiring and firing and taking people on short term contracts - if anything, the workforce will be more unsettled, and any training/learning is not carried over to the next batch. Let us think this through - as far as I am aware, car manufacturing is one of the most automated businesses. The only places where workers come into the picture is in the fittings - which have to be done manually. With respect to Tata Motors, the problem is three fold - (i) their fittings are not done with rigour and consistency (leading things to fall apart, and come lose), (ii) their parts which would have been sourced from a component manufacturer fail very regularly, and (iii) their service is not good enough, relatively speaking, to address the deficiencies.

All things said and done, its unacceptable that fit and finish is inconsistent in a production car. Since robots cannot perform inconsistent fittings, I fully blame the shopfloor workers.
Even during servicing, majority of issues crop up because the service worker 'forgot' to tighten xyz nut or fit abc component properly.
After sorting out initial niggles on the 2.2 liter engine and drive train, there are few issues of part failures, so component quality has become better.

Why Tata is losing market share so rapidly is, no one wants a car with suspect fit and finish. No amount of new technology, training, good crm practices can cure a habitually lazy workforce, best solution is to fire and hire more motivated ones.

If there is something Maruti has got right, it is assembly of cars in the factory and good after sales service. How they do it, is something Tata must study, my thought is a healthy fear of losing one's job and competition keeps the workforce on its toes to perform a good job, versus sarkari attitude of a life long job gurantee no matter what.