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Old 10th August 2018, 13:29   #301
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I don't know whether it's our quest for unbiasedness or extreme association with the product we own and its brand that we are going to such lengths to defend a brand or present a point of view that helps its cause.

Some random unknown expert is being asked for his opinion and that opinion is being shared here as a part of affirmation towards the stand taken by the brand.

If one is a bona fide expert on the topic then she/he should make an official or formal statement. Such an ambiguous and almost anonymous response is nothing but red herring.
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Old 10th August 2018, 13:51   #302
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
So pinged him 1 on 1 a few hours back. The following is copy and paste from the chat.

SDP :

Sanjeev :
Hi SDP, thank you for sharing insights from an experienced professional, who has been involved in passive safety systems.

Can you please ask Sanjeev one more question:

What can be done NOW, to objectively find out facts, which rationalize why the airbags didn't deploy? This would help the owner, the members here and perhaps also the manufacturer. Since he has expertise & first hand experience in this field, he could suggest the best approach forward.

Spike
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Old 10th August 2018, 13:51   #303
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

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Originally Posted by SDP View Post
Can you please site other examples from vehicles of same segment / price-point where the design is different? Screenshots from owner's manual or any technical documentation would be highly appreciated.

You can see my post on this thread, Post Number #25.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-s...ml#post4432126

Below is a screenshot from Ford Owners manual where there is no terms and condition like hitting by a pole or tree. If the impact is there the Airbags will deploy and it has been proved in my last accident where I can confirm I was not driving at insane speed and the impact too was decent nothing as compared to arvindb4's car. Checked the Mahindra XUV's owner manual screenshots through the link in your post, trust me that is a design flaw.


Edit: Added attachment.
Attached Thumbnails
XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)-screenshot_20180810132201.jpg  


Last edited by roby_dk : 10th August 2018 at 13:53.
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Old 10th August 2018, 14:12   #304
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Roby, thanks for sharing the Ford manual and I think I have found the answer to the queries of the following gentlemen:

Quote:
Originally Posted by samaspire View Post
Something's not right here. The airbags are supposed to deflate immediately. Why is one still inflated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
I don't think it is. It's just propped up, or just the stiffness of the material holding it, or a combination. The picture from the front clearly shows the vent holes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinnerr View Post
it looks as if no one was on the seat, hence the bag is holding its inflated position / structure.
The writing in the RHS column, second last paragraph clearly states that the airbag will deflate after contact with the occupant.

Since, there was no one on the Pax seat of the SX4 in question, the airbag still looks inflated. I think probably the force of cushioning the occupant helps in deflating the airbag.

This is why I make it a point to read instruction manuals carefully, not only of the car, but of any appliance I use. I can safely say that even after reading the instruction manuals of my cars so many times, I would still pick up something new if I were to read it today again. There is just so much useful information there.

Regards,
Saket
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Old 10th August 2018, 14:39   #305
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
...
Since, there was no one on the Pax seat of the SX4 in question, the airbag still looks inflated. I think probably the force of cushioning the occupant helps in deflating the airbag.

...

Regards,
Saket
Will a passenger side airbag deploy if the seat is unoccupied?
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Old 10th August 2018, 14:53   #306
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
Will a passenger side airbag deploy if the seat is unoccupied?
Yes, if the car has no passenger detection system. In that case, both airbags will deploy. In case of cars fitted with passenger detection switch under the co-driver's seat, the airbag will deploy only if the passenger weighs over the manufacturer set trigger weight. Most car manufacturers have this set to 28-30 Kgs.

Regards,
Saket
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Old 10th August 2018, 14:55   #307
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
[b][u]

Since, there was no one on the Pax seat of the SX4 in question, the airbag still looks inflated. I think probably the force of cushioning the occupant helps in deflating the airbag.

,
Saket
Not necessarily. They have fairly large holes so that when a body hits the bag, it acts like a cushion, not as a balloon. If it holds air, it will be more harmful than helpful. Any airbag would deflate eventually without having faced an impact. One in the picture is just holding it's inflated form. It's not inflated per se.
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Old 10th August 2018, 15:02   #308
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
Not necessarily. They have fairly large holes so that when a body hits the bag, it acts like a cushion, not as a balloon. If it holds air, it will be more harmful than helpful. Any airbag would deflate eventually without having faced an impact. One in the picture is just holding it's inflated form. It's not inflated per se.
Yes, I agree to your point and to your observation. In fact, if you read my post again, you shall find that I have said that the force will help the airbag deflate immediately (forcing the air out of those vents due to the pressure of impact).

Regards,
Saket

Last edited by saket77 : 10th August 2018 at 15:04.
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Old 10th August 2018, 15:12   #309
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
Sorry, but I am not able to understand. If you were not aware who is this guy then why were you looking particularly for him?
I had interacted with him earlier and based on that knew he is an industry insider. I also knew part of his credentials from previous interactions. I wanted to share the conversation with him as-is without anything being reworded. So rather than assuming his credentials or stating something generic like "industry expert", I asked him specifically. I already knew about his ARAI association, but wanted the complete thing.


Quote:
I am no expert in this but the other so referred expert should have first seen the vehicle before making such a claim that the severity of crash was not much.
Except Arvind, how many contributors of this thread have actually "seen" the vehicle? That hasn't stopped us from entertaining their comments and even outlandish conclusions. So why apply a different yardstick to Sanjeev? All his comments are high-level visual observations anyways for which pics and accident description should suffice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roy_libran View Post
Sorry SDP - With due respect to you, I must concede that I too am not convinced by either, your post, or your friend!

I have two contentions why-

1. When I or anyone buys an Airbag equipped vehicle, the underlying expectation is that the Airbag would deploy in a severe accident - Period!
If none out of the 6 air-bags thought it worth their while, to deploy in such an accident, because the manufacturer (perhaps) wanted the impact to happen in a certain way, then I believe that the malaise actually runs deeper because as consumers we are being misled by all the advertising and feature lists, all of which leads to better profit margins.
By the way, in my very first post on this thread, I had also conceded that it would possibly be understandable if the front airbags did not deploy in this incident, but absolutely NOT the side and curtain ones.
I will need time to address this. Will get back soon.

Quote:
2. After spending close to 15 years myself in the IT sector, I am wont to doubt the credibility of anyone who had to gravitate from the automobile sector to the IT sector for employment. I don't know the gentleman in question, and this doubt may be unfounded, but that IT PROGRAM MANAGEMENT stuck out like a Red Herring.
I really don't know how to react to this.
Let me understand this again - you are challenging the credibility of someone with ACTUAL auto-industry experience specific to crash-testing because today he is a different field? At the same time, you are able to accept all the expert opinions on this thread from members who have no real experience about crash-testing or airbags. I don't know what you say.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Biraj View Post
...
Some random unknown expert is being asked for his opinion and that opinion is being shared here ...
The credentials of the "random unknown expert" have been shared. If you would rather hear opinions/perceptions/biases/prejudices of other people with no credentials, its your call.

Quote:
If one is a bona fide expert on the topic then she/he should make an official or formal statement. Such an ambiguous and almost anonymous response is nothing but red herring.
Neither he nor me have claimed that he is an expert. I have just shared his credentials. He hasn't got anything to do with this case. He has shared his insights and high level observations based on a specific request by me. If you have read the conversation correctly, you would notice that he has mentioned that there is no entity/agency in India that can carry out a technical investigation. So neither he as individual or even ARAI can do a official investigation or formal statement. He has clearly pointed the first and the most severe points of impact and how they are far away from the airbag trigger zones. He has also pin-pointed to unbent crumple-zone bar in the driver side door and the impact at the center of the beam behind the front bumper. If that is ambiguous to you, cant help it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
...
Can you please ask Sanjeev one more question:

What can be done NOW, to objectively find out facts, which rationalize why the airbags didn't deploy? This would help the owner, the members here and perhaps also the manufacturer. Since he has expertise & first hand experience in this field, he could suggest the best approach forward.

Spike
He had already said that there is no entity/agency in India who can do justice to this investigation (if the manufacturer can not be trusted with the investigation). So we have to look outside India. Distinguished BHPian SS-Traveller has mentioned the same thing a few pages back and even given a few specific pointers to Arvind. A private investigation from overseas experts is not going to be cheap. Some agency has already quoted 2 lakhs if I remember correctly from one of Arvind's post itself.

Last edited by SDP : 10th August 2018 at 15:16.
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Old 10th August 2018, 15:56   #310
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by roy_libran View Post
When I or anyone buys an Airbag equipped vehicle, the underlying expectation is that the Airbag would deploy in a severe accident - Period!
If none out of the 6 air-bags thought it worth their while, to deploy in such an accident, because the manufacturer (perhaps) wanted the impact to happen in a certain way, then I believe that the malaise actually runs deeper because as consumers we are being misled by all the advertising and feature lists, all of which leads to better profit margins.
By the way, in my very first post on this thread, I had also conceded that it would possibly be understandable if the front airbags did not deploy in this incident, but absolutely NOT the side and curtain ones.
I couldn't say it any better.

If a manufacturer is not able to save a severe head injury from happening because their side-airbag algorithm didn't feel the need then they need to put that algorithm along with its creator in the nearest garbage dump!

As a manufacturer what are you claiming when you highlight that the car has airbags for front, side, knees etc. You are giving this assurance to the customer then instead of hitting their head on the window the curtain airbag would absorb that impact.

Now if that doesn't happen and you are able to get away with a statement that the algorithm or variables in the accident didn't warrant for an airbag deployment then there are 2 idiots in this equation, (1) the incompetent manufacturer of course and (2) customers who believe this manufacturer's claims.

This actually reminds me of that fairness cream ad where you are supposed to get 5 or 6 shades fair within a few weeks. I mean we all know no one would but then what are you going to do about it. Sue them??

Accidents or collisions come with so many variables in play that the best thing that an algorithm should do is to deploy airbags the moment it sees a 1% chance of severe injury instead of waiting for 100% confirmation.

Honest question though, is there really a possibility of severe injuries if side curtain airbags deploy without the need for them? If not, does it answer a few questions on this thread?
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Old 10th August 2018, 16:37   #311
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by roby_dk View Post
Below is a screenshot from Ford Owners manual where there is no terms and condition like hitting by a pole or tree. If the impact is there the Airbags will deploy and it has been proved in my last accident where I can confirm I was not driving at insane speed and the impact too was decent nothing as compared to arvindb4's car. Checked the Mahindra XUV's owner manual screenshots through the link in your post, trust me that is a design flaw.
Excellent point. In this case of arvindb4, the driver has suffered head injuries, which could have been prevented with airbags deploying. Serious design flaw on the XUV. Totally agree with you

Quote:
Originally Posted by fine69 View Post

If a manufacturer is not able to save a severe head injury from happening because their side-airbag algorithm didn't feel the need then they need to put that algorithm along with its creator in the nearest garbage dump!
Excellent point.

Last edited by GTO : 11th August 2018 at 09:10. Reason: Last line was completely unnecessary
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Old 10th August 2018, 17:02   #312
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
This particular crash is being discussed in various groups and in one of those groups, I was looking forward to what one particular gentlemen Sanjeev had to say regarding the crash. Somehow couldn't find his comments at all. So pinged him 1 on 1 a few hours back. The following is copy and paste from the chat.
...
Please take a look at the video of the crash test of Volvo XC40 given in this post - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post4430388

In the front offset deformable barrier test, there is no impact on/visible deformation of the doors. However the side curtain airbags are deployed. As per Sanjeev crumble zone bar is not bent in the XUV and hence no side/curtain airbags deployed. So Volvo has the wrong trigger mechanism? Even in the side pole test on the doors, the side/curtain airbags are deployed. Wrong design again?

Look at this picture below
Name:  bent_crossmember.PNG
Views: 1370
Size:  804.5 KB
Sanjeev has circled this very same member with the comment "cross member is not even bent". The pic shows otherwise.

Last edited by SDP : 10th August 2018 at 17:45. Reason: No personal attacks please..even on non-members.
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Old 10th August 2018, 17:22   #313
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
I have huge respect for this forum because of the maturity of the members here. So it was painful to witness the mindless Mahindra bashing (and even Tata in some posts) which has been going on

Its time to keep your biases and prejudices aside and look at this case objectively.
Dear SDP,

Yes this is a mature automotive forum. And yes, we did bash M&M, but you did'nt get the reasons for the bashing. The bashing was due to them being unresponsive to Arvind's queries. He has asked them (Both privately and publicly) for specific information. They have not cared to respond to the request for information. Also, irrespective of what your expert feels he can infer from the crash pictures, an expert usually holds his opinion until he does an exhaustive inspection. After all one of the differences between an expert and a novice is the amount of experience, study and maturity that they bring to the table.

Secondly there are independent organizations in India which look into crash investigation. IRTE (http://www.irte.com/crash-investigation/) is one such organization. Perhaps senior members of this forum, including yourself, can help convince M&M to share the required data with IRTE so that Arvind's demand for an independent unbiased investigation is met.

Lastly, its high time that we Indians raise the demand for a central crash investigation agency so that engineering defects in our vehicles are identified and guilty manufacturers are booked. Its very obvious to all and sundry that ARAI is failing miserably in every way possible, except maybe the mileage tests.
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Old 10th August 2018, 17:23   #314
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

This discussion is getting quite emotional and the mob mentality that moderator SDP had mentioned seems to be coming in. Many members (including me) are unable to grasp the logic behind all airbags failing in a car that has been so badly damaged. This does not seem to be normal and if the manufacturer does prove that it is not a malfunction I would say that the sensors perform within too narrow a range.
There is no reason to assume that all Mahindra vehicles are rubbish based on this incident but the onus is on the manufacturer to prove that they didn't go wrong and allay the fears of present and prospective XUV owners.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
..
.
.
.

Front airbags by definition are supposed to be triggered by a direct impact to the front. So what do you call it when the front airbags deploy in a side-impact scenario like what happened with tbhpian bking's Ford? Sorry for possibly jumping the gun (without having the complete details), but the word that comes to my mind is - malfunction.

.
.

I am really not sure what to make of this statement. Since the airbags did their job and saved the driver from injury I think Ford should be commended for this 'malfunction'.

Last edited by Roy.S : 10th August 2018 at 17:39. Reason: Grammar
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Old 10th August 2018, 17:36   #315
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
Somehow couldn't find his comments at all. So pinged him 1 on 1 a few hours back. The following is copy and paste from the chat.
Pardon my technical ignorance and/or my overlook of any previous answers, but is Mr. Sanjeev discounting the fact of sudden deceleration which should have triggered the deployment? Why I ask is because he seems to concentrate on unbent members, are any sensor measuring the amount of bend, is any trigger deployed when a member touches a sensor?
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