[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by SDP

So please allow me to retire for today. I will be back tomorrow with the logic and reason ammunition reloaded.

How quaint though, that I was having very similar thoughts myself, both in respect to zombies, mobs and the need to retire for the night and come back with a fresh mind.
Good night to you too Sir, and let's hope you dream of prettier things than zombies.

[roby_dk]

Originally Posted by SDP

I am feeling like being in a zombie apocalypse movie where irrespective of how many zombies you drop, new ones keep on coming at you frothing at the mouth shouting "Mahindra ...shame ..shame!".

Super I was expecting several profile bans today. Seems nothing went wrong and it was a decent debate today. Anyways I have lot of time left before going to bed so few more observations from my side.

I quickly downloaded owners manual of Ford vehicles i.e. Endeavour, Ecosport, Freestyle, Figo, Aspire and Mustang all have the same type of Airbag deployment mechanism. Nothing mentioned regarding trees or poles. Does that mean Ford is providing the best calibration for Airbag sensors.

BTW on the same note I was thinking a group of Avengers fighting against Loki.

[SDP]

Originally Posted by roby_dk

....
I quickly downloaded owners manual of Ford vehicles i.e. Endeavour, Ecosport, Freestyle, Figo, Aspire and Mustang all have the same type of Airbag deployment mechanism. Nothing mentioned regarding trees or poles. Does that mean Ford is providing the best calibration for Airbag sensors.

....:

I am so tempted to make a cheeky comment about how Ford India is not really known for great documentation (chassis parts removed in Indian Endeavor still being shown in the owner's manual). But I won't

On a serious note, if I were you, I would verify how many front crash censors does the Endeavor have. If it's also 2, and their placement is similar to what seems to be a industry standard practice, most likely the behavior would be similar to other models I have shared earlier. If not, I would be really interested in knowing how did they managed to take care of the impact from a pole or a tree.

[bhpfaninblr]

Originally Posted by roby_dk

I quickly downloaded owners manual of Ford vehicles i.e. Endeavour, Ecosport, Freestyle, Figo, Aspire and Mustang all have the same type of Airbag deployment mechanism. Nothing mentioned regarding trees or poles. Does that mean Ford is providing the best calibration for Airbag sensors.

I think it is quite possible that Ford has the best calibration for airbag sensors. Ford is at the forefront of engineering and have designed some of the best award winning engines in-house like the Ecoboost 1.0L. Their ecoblue diesel is also class leading. Ford has R&D centers and invests in the best engineering talent and that should make Ford engineered vehicles more reliable

Mahindra needs to invest in engineering talent and engineering R&D to make more reliable vehicles.
Off topic: This is like Xiaomi vs. Apple

[SmartCat]

Did some quick research:

So yes, the reason why XUV 500 and possibly other cars in the price range are not peppered with airbag sensors is because it is expensive. Toyota Corolla's airbag sensor costs $110. From what I understand, it includes wiring kit too. That's Rs. 7,500 x 6 = Rs. 45,000 for XUV 500's airbag sensors + wiring kit. Of course, manufacturer is possibly paying 70% list price since they purchase in bulk - but it is still a tidy amount just for the sensors.

https://parts.toyota.com/p/Toyota__C...917349375.html

The same link suggests that Toyota Corolla has only 2 airbag sensors at the front - it says FRONT LEFT and FRONT RIGHT airbag sensor. Further confirmation that Corolla has only 2 airbag sensors at the front:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnmzGGF7yEc

[roby_dk]

Originally Posted by SDP

On a serious note, if I were you, I would verify how many front crash censors does the Endeavor have. If it's also 2, and their placement is similar to what seems to be a industry standard practice, most likely the behavior would be similar to other models I have shared earlier. If not, I would be really interested in knowing how did they managed to take care of the impact from a pole or a tree.

Just because I own a Ford vehicle I will not support them without reason. I am not a Ford fanboy. I think we should not count number of sensors, even if any car has a single sensor and is able to outclass the dual sensor setup I will pick up the former anyday. As you rightly said we do not have any discrete data for Ford vehicles managing impact from pole or tree but can't we treat the owners manual a proof here.

While Mahindra has explicitly mentioned that their Airbag setup doesn't support hitting by a pole or tree, Ford didn't said anything about the same, rather a straight forward statement that Airbags will work on frontal impact. I think they deserve the benefit of doubt till this is not proved.

[SDP]

Originally Posted by roby_dk

...
While Mahindra has explicitly mentioned that their Airbag setup doesn't support hitting by a pole or tree, Ford didn't said anything about the same, rather a straight forward statement that Airbags will work on frontal impact. I think they deserve the benefit of doubt till this is not proved.

Sir, on this thread, nobody is giving credence to the XUV's 4 star rating from an independent agency (ANCAP). And you want to give benefit of doubt to Ford based on what they themselves have mentioned in their documentation? Not fair.

Since you had made a comment about all Ford vehicles, here's something to ponder upon:

https://youtu.be/Uo2VRmX3BVs

[roby_dk]

Originally Posted by SDP

Since you had made a comment about all Ford vehicles, here's something to ponder upon:

Sorry SDP, I think we are deviating from the original topic. The facts and videos shared by you unless from a member or trusted source can not be considered. Who knows if the occupants were wearing seatbelts or the sensors went kaput before crash.

Here the case is crystal clear, we have a XUV in question where Madhav was belted as confirmed by Arvind. Then we have the pictures of the damaged vehicle which has enough damage for deployment of Airbags.

[Lalvaz]

I'm not an expert in automotive safety nor in airbags. I'm guessing most other posters here are not experts either. However I find it appalling that Mahindra does not feel the need to share the data which Arvind has repeatedly sought in order to ensure an impartial investigation by an independent third party!

Does no one else seem to find that CRIMINAL?

Please ask yourself this question, Would you trivialize such an important discussion if one of your beloved family members was critically injured in such a crash? When you try and lighten up the mood by talking about zombies, I understand your sentiment and sense of humour but pause a minute to think about how it feels when you're fighting a lonely battle for justice against a large corporation in a country like India where our legal system is neither just nor time bound and it's literally a losing battle even if you're right.

Think please cos the next time this thought crosses your mind, it might just be you fighting the lonely battle.

Sorry for the rant. Just couldn't help it. God knows...

[rdst_1]

Maybe now we'll start getting variants based on the number of sensors deployed in the car. Pay more if you want to be really safe and not just under an illusion.

Seriously though, I thank SDP for having the courage to act as the devil's advocate' in this thread. It can't be easy and also shows how the strict stance of TeamBHP on debates ensure that relevance of the issue doesn't go for a toss.

I think what is needed to put this issue to bed is an impartial third party investigation. Till then, it is definitely wrong to convict someone. Comparing it to mob-lynchings might seem over the top, but the analogy is not far from the truth.

I think he has raised an important point about our expectations vs what is actually being provided. The problem is that it should be the government's responsibility to make sure that either we are at the cutting edge of such safety systems or stop false advertisements so that we, as drivers, are a lot more cautious of how we navigate through our dangerous roads.
Our expectations also need to be more real. Our tax structure doesn't help either. After paying 20L+ for vehicles, we feel and certainly expect higher levels of equipment, not realizing that upto 70% taxes on actual billed price are a reason the car is expensive. An OTR price of 17L is actually a car billed by the company at 10-11L.

What we really need is both consumer awareness regarding safety as well as Indian standard for safety and testing. Something that might help would be tax subsidies for cars which achieve maximum safety ratings.

Unfortunately, like many situations in India, it has taken such a serious incident for us, even at TeamBHP, to talk about solutions which are badly needed for a long time now. Hopefully, something concrete and positive comes out of this.

[Turbanator]

Since you had made a comment about all Ford vehicles, here's something to ponder upon

Again, not a technical expert but it appears this car has gone under something maybe stationary and has taken the hit from the top. If you look carefully, even the number plate is intact and most of the damage has taken by the bonnet & the engine.

I am feeling like being in a zombie apocalypse movie where irrespective of how many zombies you drop, new ones keep on coming at you frothing at the mouth shouting "Mahindra ...shame ..shame!

I think you need to take a break no one is coming after you or Mahindra. Instead of making defensive statements, Mahindra should have tried to find the root cause and take corrective steps on existing and the new cars even if that means a temporary hold on the sales of the product. They have sold 7000 Airbags, fine but what if 7 or 70 or 700 more didn't deploy due to an error?

It takes guts to forego sales or profits and Mahindra could have got many more customers including me had they shown some seriousness. The companies that we see and respect today - Toyota, Suzuki and others all did mistakes but they quickly learnt and made changes.

[SDP]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

.....
Please ask yourself this question, Would you trivialize such an important discussion if one of your beloved family members was critically injured in such a crash? When you try and lighten up the mood by talking about zombies, I understand your sentiment and sense of humour but pause a minute to think about how it feels when you're fighting a lonely battle for justice against a large corporation in a country like India where our legal system is neither just nor time bound and it's literally a losing battle even if you're right.

Think please cos the next time this thought crosses your mind, it might just be you fighting the lonely battle.
Sorry for the rant. Just couldn't help it. God knows...

Lalvaz, My heart goes out to the impacted party every time I am on this thread and I do look forward to a satisfactory closure to the anguish that they are going through. Having said that, let's not get hyper-emotional about the topic and say "how dare you trivialize the issue" and "think about how it feels". Its easy to mistake my last night post as 'funny', but believe me its more about the utter frustration and helplessness that I was feeling with the realization that logic and reason don't have a place in today's debates. Its all about who is shouting the loudest and how consistently.


Let me share something that only a few friends from a particular circle and the Team-BHP MOD community knows (as its not in the open forum). For a matter related to safety (and that too not with my own vehicle), I had taken on the same manufacturer at one point of time and even met higher-ups in the organization to get myself heard. Wasn't easy. So please do not assume that I don't know how it feels to fight a lonely battle. I do and in-fact against the same manufacturer.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

....Instead of making defensive statements, Mahindra should have tried to find the root cause and take corrective steps on existing and the new cars ...

How do you propose Mahindra find out the root-cause without having access to the vehicle?
You forgot to add "if a cause attributed to the manufacturer is found" at the end of the part I have quoted and that is the ONLY point I have been trying to highlight since the begining. Without any proper investigation and without having any domain knowledge, a lot of members have jumped the gun and arrived at the conclusion based on pics and a third-person account of the accident and have already termed the manufacturer guilty. I don't find that fair.

...even if that means a temporary hold on the sales of the product.

Really? you believe that's a reasonable expectation when noone really knows at this point of time about what exactly happened and what are the causes? Just because the victim and a whole bunch of knowledgeable members on Team-BHP "believe" that its the manufacturer who is at fault here?

They have sold 7000 Airbags, fine but what if 7 or 70 or 700 more didn't deploy due to an error?

It takes guts to forego sales or profits and Mahindra could have got many more customers including me had they shown some seriousness. The companies that we see and respect today - Toyota, Suzuki and others all did mistakes but they quickly learnt and made changes.

Please.. please don't even get me started on Toyota and "how quickly they learnt and made changes". It will derail the thread completely. So I will give you a pointer and close the discussion at that.
https://www.slideshare.net/PhilipKoo...d-acceleration

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by SDP

How do you propose Mahindra find out the root-cause without having access to the vehicle?

So you want to say that OP never sent the car to the dealership and just started Mahindra bashing on social media including here?

No one in the right frame of mind can accept that Airbags did not deploy on that car due to a feature or at least I feel like that. Now if someone wants to prove that this is a design feature- non-deployment due to limited impact, I think this feature needs more prominence, print media and auto magazines, how about Mahindra itself coming out with an Add showing this great feature with a Tagline - Fitted with Air Bags that outlast the vehicle (or the owner!)

Originally Posted by SDP

Really? you believe that's a reasonable expectation when noone really knows at this point of time about what exactly happened and what are the causes? Just because the victim and a whole bunch of knowledgeable members on Team-BHP "believe" that its the manufacturer who is at fault here?

Why not? Who has given them a right to produce and sell a vehicle which cannot perform in the same way as its supposed to? What stops Mahindra senior guys visit OP, assuring him of all the answers to his satisfaction? I will say, they should still approach OP and try to find out the reasons and take the decision.

PS: I won't go into the Toyota brake issues as I don't have enough information but if I am not mistaken, Toyota Head apologised to everyone in the USA. If Toyota has done so many errors and is still being respected by ordinary folks like me it means that there is something called brand perception & they must have done some good work in the past, Mahindra needs to build that image first before they become arrogant say like a Toyota or Ford if that's what you implied.

[SDP]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

So you want to say that OP never sent the car to the dealership and just started Mahindra bashing on social media including here?

I hope you understand that a dealership is typically a manufacturer representative and not the manufacturer itself. I don't believe there would be credible expertise at a dealership level to figure out root causes. They are typically good at "this is broken, we can replace that, costs so much". As per the statement issued by Mahindra, they still didn't had access to the vehicle for investigation. Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken or not updated.

No one in the right frame of mind can accept that Airbags did not deploy on that car due to a feature or at least I feel like that. Now if someone wants to prove that this is a design feature- non-deployment due to limited impact, I think this feature needs more prominence, print media and auto magazines, how about Mahindra itself coming out with an Add showing this great feature with a Tagline - Fitted with Air Bags that outlast the vehicle (or the owner!)

No, it's not a feature. It's a standard design practice across the industry. I have shared multiple examples of pole/tree imapacts.

Why not? Who has given them a right to produce and sell a vehicle which cannot perform in the same way as its supposed to?

Again, you seem to be jumping to the conclusion. The manufacturer knows how the vehicle is designed and how it is supposed to perform. It's even clearly documented in the owner's manual ..just like so many other cars. Ignoring all of that, if some people insist that the vehicle should perform as per what they wish or assume, all I can say is "all the very best".

PS: I won't go into the Toyota brake issues as I don't have enough information but if I am not mistaken, Toyota Head apologised to everyone in the USA. If Toyota has done so many errors and is still being respected by ordinary folks like me it means that there is something called brand perception & they must have done some good work in the past, Mahindra needs to build that image first before they become arrogant say like a Toyota or Ford if that's what you implied

.
You have "assumed" it's about the brake issues. That's the main problem... assumptions. Please go through the pointer I have given.

[Amartya]

Originally Posted by arvindb4

No sir I had to remove it after insurance survey as Dealer was demanding parking charges. It's safe and secure at my vacant gated plot. Covered fully

Originally Posted by Turbanator

So you want to say that OP never sent the car to the dealership and just started Mahindra bashing on social media including here?

The car was not at the dealership for long. And the owner, rightly so, has not had Mahindra engineers look at it.

While SDP has drawn some fire, I think this is a case where there truly is a chicken or egg problem. Can’t give carte blanche access to Mahindra, because they can’t be trusted; at the same time, we are speculating based on the pictures (albeit quite damning) that tell an incomplete story.

Anyway, thought I’d quote the post where some of the details might have been forgotten/skimmed over.