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Old 11th August 2018, 23:51   #361
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
After....No panchnama, FIR copy, nothing.
So you want the copies of those documents to get some 'first hand' info of the accident. But why? Will that make a difference? If yes, then what?



Quote:
We have heard the manufacturer's response and since they have been denied access to thw vehicle, that response will only be a standard marketing response.
Manufacturer wants an access to the vehicle, quite acceptable. But how can Mr. Arvind trust them?


Quote:
I for one am not inclined to particularly favour one party over the other.
Nobody is, everyone here is asking Mahindra to come up with a reasonable explanation or find a midway with Mr. Arvind when it comes to investigation. Here we have Team-BHP homepage having a news section and featured display of Ford denying a media car (Who knows what actual reason is?) and you are talking about taking sides when we have a father looking at his son suffering with brain injuries just because he feels that probably an airbag deployment would have saved his son from what he is undergoing?


What Mr. Arvind is demanding is a simple probe and Mahindra to give him some details of a few components and help him with investigations. Here we have multiple BHPians Tweeting to Mahindra - why didn't they come up with a credible answer? Let me make it clear again, nobody is blaming Mahindra; people are only looking for an answer to the question that has risen out of this particular accident.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chinkara View Post
2. It seems Arvind had asked...should have come.
Completely agree, if Mahindra is being completely transparent then they should instead co-operate and see how can they help Mr. Arvind discover the truth.



These companies put entire teams to work at times for even shallow tasks, here they have simply turned a cold shoulder and ignored the spark awaiting to let it die.


Quote:
Originally Posted by roy_libran View Post
...and I'd request everyone to reconsider on this request.

+1


Quote:
Our forum has been the single biggest channel..Let us not cut him off from this link.
Indeed, this forum is powerful enough that it can at least help him get as close to the truth as possible. It's Team-BHP; this forum stands for truth, and if Mr. Arvind gets disappointment from here too, then what is the difference between us and the guys who write what manufacturers want them to?
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Old 12th August 2018, 00:19   #362
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

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Originally Posted by VKumar View Post
Manufacturer wants an access to the vehicle, quite acceptable. But how can Mr. Arvind trust them?
There you have written the answer to this whole dilemma yourself.

Under the present condition the manufacturer is the only entity fit enough to investigate and find out what really happened with the vehicle.

The FIR or panchnama would give some details about how the accident took place.

Unless this impasse is broken and some form of investigation other than speculation and emotional discharge is carried out, this discussion is headed nowhere.

And I think it's perfectly reasonable on the part of the company to demand and get access to the vehicle in question if they have to face a culpable homicide charge. It's only fair. The more you keep denying it, the more you drive away from the possibility of finding out the truth and finding a solution to this issue.

Found your statement of 'nobody blaming Mahindra' quite ironical, where people are not only blaming them for putting unsafe vehicles out on the roads, but also trying to drown out the few voices of reason trying to go by rational thought and not merely get carried away by emotions.

What do you expect Mahindra to do? What response do you expect from the manufacturer? And without getting access to the vehicle how would a manufacturer react?

From an anguished post by a grieving father, this thread has become a Mahindra bashing one, showing more mob mentality than any sense or reason.

If Team BHP and its members stand by fairness above all, why are we not asking for the process of law to be initiated instead of mere opinions and feelings driving the entire discussion?

Peace out.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 12th August 2018 at 09:04. Reason: Minor typos
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Old 12th August 2018, 06:00   #363
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post

Request mods to please close the thread.
I have been reading this thread since the beginning and i don't understand this request to close this thread.

If we start closing threads because members criticise a manufacturer and few others don't like it, then we will be pretty much closing all such threads.

I am no expert (since that is the fashionable thing to say) but this accident clearly is a one where Airbags should have deployed.. period. It doesn't matter if the manufacturer is M&M or Tata or Merc or VW or any other manufacturer. If this is the intended outcome of Mahindra's implementation, then there is something wrong in their implementation and it should be rectified. If it is a one-off, they should find out why it happened.

I have seen some members mentioning that maybe the victim was not wearing seatbelt. It is possible (although his father is saying otherwise). But from what i could gather it is not gospel truth that airbags will be deployed only if seat belts are worn. Even for front airbags, it depends on the implementation and it seems there are many types of implementations (default deployment, passenger detection, dual stage etc) where airbags will deploy even if it is not worn. So it is important we understand how it is implemented in the XUV. I hope someone can answer this. I will try to understand from my sources in the company too.

For the side and curtain airbags it (wearing of seatbelts) doesn't seem to be a necessary requirement in most implementations.

Mahindra owes an explanation and should understand the lack of confidence in them. But if we go by the wishy-washy explanation they gave on the other incident (XUV aquaplaning) then i don't see much of point in that. I have nothing against Mahindra and i would be the first one to agree that in the Indian scenario irrespective of which manufacturer it is, the situation will probably the same (the lack of confidence of they being fair and transparent)

Regarding the opinion of the person SDP quoted. I won't give much credence to it. He seems to be finding an explanation to the outcome (airbags not deploying) rather than trying to analyse if the outcome itself is what is expected. Plus he seems to have got some basic things wrong (like the statement that 'front cross member is not impacted'. To me it clearly is). I won't blame him as he probably did a quick and cursory job without giving too much attention. So, to me it is just another opinion just like others, nothing more, nothing less.

So i would say let the discussion go on. I am sure some good will come out of it

Last edited by Mohan Mathew A : 12th August 2018 at 06:02.
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Old 12th August 2018, 08:49   #364
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

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Originally Posted by Mohan Mathew A View Post

So i would say let the discussion go on. I am sure some good will come out of it
Agree. Also agree with your point that this need not be Mahindra specific, but a full discussion will help illuminate the area of safety for all manufacturers.

Safety equipment can save lives. I am a first hand exhibit of that. About 6 years back, when NH8 expansion was going on, I was driving too slow (~50) in my Wagon R. A truck sped from the left, suddenly realized that there was a diversion (and hence I had slowed down), tried to cut to the right and banged my left rear. Car picked up trucks's momentum, moved right, hit the boulders NHAI had placed to indicate "road closed"and toppled over. My wife and I were hanging upside down but uninjured, thanks to the seat-belt. So we unbuckled ourselves, with the help of locals got out of the door and straightened the car. The truck driver had fled - he was sure there were fatalities. I actually took the car to MASS Behror, and completed the trip to Jaisalmer. Everywhere we went, people came over to see the car with paints peeled off on the sides and roof(!). But we completed the trip without any hassle (except for a puncture and tyre change at noon in the middle of the desert).

In another incident I know of, a colleague's Honda Accord was smashed in a 3 car pile up - the car before him braked suddenly, the LCV behind him could not and he was sandwiched in between. Thanks's to crumple zones and airbags all 4 passengers (he and his brother in law in front, wife and sister at the back) survived with minor injuries. He was so thankful of the safety features that after scrapping the car he bought another Accord. So I know that Accord is a safe car.

No matter how carefully you drive, there can be accidents. And I would certainly be very keen to understand in what conditions the safety equipment will work and in what conditions it will not.

Last edited by SDP : 12th August 2018 at 10:31. Reason: Typo
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Old 12th August 2018, 09:21   #365
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Guy's the discussion is going in circles and will keep going in circles until the manufacturer or the OP returns or shares something with us. Because we can only think of what happened or what should have happened and i think 25 pages are enough for that. Everyone wants to help OP but everyone here is held back in their own way and the thing is unless some technical guys investigate the vehicle we cannot do anything. So guys i would request everyone to post only if something important comes up and refrain ourselves from piling up pages until OP arrives with some answers and then continue our discussion.

Sorry mods for back to back posts.
Guy's Arvind is consulting an international crash test consultant in Germany. The consultant gave some queries which Arvind forwarded to Mahindra, but they are silent on these points and reply to everything except them.
He says "If they answer these, my consultant can immediately suggest the best agency to investigate"
Following are the questions:
Q1) Would like to have a copy of the 'Type' Approval for Mahindra Xuv500, manufacturing year 2013, issued by ARAI
Q2)'Type' Approval and the test report of Frontal and Curtain Airbags from the Approval Body including ARAI.
Q3) Name of Test Agency who approved it if anyone different.
Q4) Are these test reports part of ARAI and valid for sale in India ?
Can anyone can help dig up some answers ?

Last edited by SDP : 12th August 2018 at 18:31. Reason: Merging back to back posts
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Old 12th August 2018, 18:04   #366
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

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Originally Posted by revvharder View Post
...
Following are the questions:
Q1) Would like to have a copy of the 'Type' Approval for Mahindra Xuv500, manufacturing year 2013, issued by ARAI
Q2)'Type' Approval and the test report of Frontal and Curtain Airbags from the Approval Body including ARAI.
Q3) Name of Test Agency who approved it if anyone different.
Q4) Are these test reports part of ARAI and valid for sale in India ?
Can anyone can help dig up some answers ?
https://www.araiindia.com/faqs_aype_...ertificate.asp

A stone wall.

The type approval report is given to the manufacturer who holds its distribution rights. The ARAI cannot share it with anyone else.
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Old 13th August 2018, 11:51   #367
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

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Originally Posted by bhpfaninblr View Post
Whatever happened to arvindb4?
No news from him or about his son. Is anyone in touch with him? Hope things are fine at his end. He has suddenly gone silent.

If anyone is in touch with him, please update this thread
Amongst other things Arvind is busy attending to Madhav,who only last week had to undergo a neuro surgery for the third time.
Madhav has since been discharged and awaits removal of stitches,while undergoing Physio and speech therapy as part of his rehab.

Last edited by Eddy : 13th August 2018 at 12:13. Reason: Please use the "Contact Us" form for any clarification on moderator actions. Thanks
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Old 15th August 2018, 01:00   #368
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

I have been following this thread since the day 1 and have gone through each and every post.

My thoughts align with the majority of BHP-ians - At least the side airbags should have deployed. This is not a rollover case and there was multiple side impacts. Even the front impact seems to be major - But as pointed out, it might be an impact "not suitable" enough to deploy airbags.

On the other hand, I have 2 questions. Would be great if I can get the answers - that will help me form a Point of View. I do not want to form an opinion just by going through the information provided.
  1. This question was asked by MANY members. However, the OP who has responded to many individual posts has missed answering this one. May be he does not have a clear information on this and hence refrained from posting - There was a recall related to airbag deployment software - did this car go through the recall procedure and get the software updated? If not, is it fair to assume that Mahindra w(sh)ould have done the update during a regular service? What is the implication if the software was not updated? Could that possibly have caused the presumed error in airbag deployment?

  2. Will airbags deploy if the vehicle engine is switched off, but is ignition on? I am not sure of the exact specs of the 2013 XUV W8 - but immaterial of it having a push button start or key start - in case of an accident, if the vehicle turns off, it should still be in ignition ON. Now, I might be speculating and pardon me for that. Is it remotely possible that the engine got switched off as a result of the initial impact and the rest of the side impact was due to the momentum and inertia of motion while the engine was off. Will such a scenario still induce airbag deployments?
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Old 19th August 2018, 10:34   #369
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

My ban-waas is over and I shall faithfully try to follow the rules on the forum. I would like to extend my heartfelt gratitude to all bhp-ians for being genuinely forthright with their concerns views and opinions. I think every single post has been enriching.

Madhav's last surgery went off well and from the neuro brain surgery part the team has done its best. There are several other neuro issues with loss of hearing and neuro eyesight issues, that shall be addressed in the next few weeks. For now we have been asked to focus on aggressive speech, Comprehension, physio and occupational therapies and issues arising of his complete frontal cortex damage. Unfortunately we don't have an integrated facility in India to address so many issues simultaneously. The first 6 to 9 months are critical.

Regarding the present situation with the airbag issue. I remain bewildered why I have still not been provided with the answers to my queries placed on the airbag certifications. They are critical for engaging a reputed independent investigation Company.
I remain determined to get the best probe into the causes of this dreadful accident and not just confined to this accident but the core question that how can any automobile be launched without the most stringent tests on quality and safety done on Indian soil under Indian law with 0 tolerance and the best in the world standards and practices.

We don't even have a system to monitor and collate accident data in this country with most accidents going unreported- what to talk about a crash test investigation organisation.

I have in my spare time poured into every information source possible and feel very sad at the current state of laws or no laws that govern the safety of the consumer in our Automobile industry. It's a very grey area which is being misused with impunity. I have not been able to figure why the government is mum on these matters and has not prioritized it. Is it deliberate? I don't know but it seems so.

I would also like to reiterate that I have never refused inspection of the vehicle. The vehicle was was at the authorised workshop for insurance claim process for some days and no one looked at it and even the duplicate keys were sent.

When it was brought back to avoid parking charges , I was told that they would like to inspect and I told the to go ahead but no one got in touch with us and it was complete silence. It is only after this that I lost faith and insisted on an independent and monitored investigation.
Their was a police investigation immediately after the accident and a report was issued which verified that both driver and passenger were belted.
No external accessories, bull guard etc etc were ever installed. The vehicle was as it is when delivered from the showroom.

On the very first night of the accident itself, we sent a tweet to the big boss. The message was never acknowledged or replied.
All said and done, I didn't buy an expensive suv with 6 airbags and a fancy animation to support and Tom Tom its safety about srs, abs, ebs etc etc which when the time came to save my child , completely failed. On the contrary now to cover up and justify - all kinds of algorithms theorems, how to collide, how not to collide. Speed, angle geometry, acceleration, deceleration.....every possible thing gets added up.

Look at the crash.... nothing really adds up to any justification for Madhav to be in the state he is. And for the same reason, I don't think any one deserves to reach a life threatening situation like this.

We have got a lip service from the manufacturer and that's it.
My request is not to close this thread and keep it alive until the lawmakers and manufacturers wake up and take decisive remedies to end this. Issues shall always remain but there shall be an effective redressal mechanism to remedy and regulate.

Last edited by Eddy : 19th August 2018 at 20:18. Reason: Spacing for better readability
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Old 19th August 2018, 10:46   #370
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Welcome back Arvind. It's good to know that the surgery went well, but it does seem that Madhav has a long road ahead to recovery. Let the forum know if we can help in any manner.
While you were away, without you to respond immediately, some unnecessary doubts were seeded on -
1. whether seat belts were worn, and
2. whether the XUV went through an earlier recall action

I think if you are able to share a copy of the police report, or reference thereof, and the XUV's job history, both of these contentions can be laid to rest, hopefully forever, and the thread can focus back on whether or not the XUV and maybe some other vehicles, sold in India, have inadequate or ineffective safety systems by design, despite all the marketing. And of course bring the focus back on, how best to tackle Mahindra's utter lack of ethics and customer service.

Last edited by roy_libran : 19th August 2018 at 10:47.
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Old 19th August 2018, 11:06   #371
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvindb4 View Post
My ban-waas is over and I shall faithfully try to follow the rules on the forum.
Welcome back
Quote:
I would like to extend my heartfelt gratitude to all bhp-ians for being genuinely forthright with their concerns views and opinions.
Its part of who we are as a group
Quote:
Unfortunately we don't have an integrated facility in India to address so many issues simultaneously. The first 6 to 9 months are critical.
As discussed the main effort comes from the family and it is a gargantuan physical and emotional exercise over many months. After his first brain surgery my father (in his 70s then) recovered to the point of driving by himself very comfortably.
Quote:
Regarding the present situation with the airbag issue. I remain bewildered why I have still not been provided with the answers to my queries placed on the airbag certifications. They are critical for engaging a reputed independent investigation Company.
Most probably because they have none.
Quote:
It's a very grey area which is being misused with impunity.
Can you share a summary of your learnings on this forum. It will help us all a lot to be better informed.
Quote:
I would also like to reiterate that I have never refused inspection of the vehicle. The vehicle was was at the authorised workshop for insurance claim process for some days and no one looked at it and even the duplicate keys were sent.
When it was brought back to avoid parking charges , I was told that they would like to inspect and I told the to go ahead but no one got in touch with us and it was complete silence. It is only after this that I lost faith and insisted on an independent and monitored investigation.
Their was a police investigation immediately after the accident and a report was issued which verified that both driver and passenger were belted.
No external accessories, bull guard etc etc were ever installed. The vehicle was as it is when delivered from the showroom.
Thank you for confirming all these points. It helps make the picture clearer. We shall take your word on these points. While none of us wish to be offensive a human body gets tossed around violently largely if the person is not belted and that was the objective discussion doing the rounds.
Quote:
On the very first night of the accident itself, we sent a tweet to the big boss. The message was never acknowledged or replied.
Useful to know this.
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Old 19th August 2018, 11:38   #372
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvindb4 View Post
Regarding the present situation with the airbag issue. I remain bewildered why I have still not been provided with the answers to my queries placed on the airbag certifications. They are critical for engaging a reputed independent investigation Company.
...
...
I have not been able to figure why the government is mum on these matters and has not prioritized it. Is it deliberate? I don't know but it seems so.
I would also like to reiterate that I have never refused inspection of the vehicle.
...
Their was a police investigation immediately after the accident and a report was issued which verified that both driver and passenger were belted.
No external accessories, bull guard etc etc were ever installed. The vehicle was as it is when delivered from the showroom.
...
My request is not to close this thread and keep it alive until the lawmakers and manufacturers wake up and take decisive remedies to end this. ...
I do hope your son makes a full recovery. It was I who suggested for the thread to be closed for the only reason that I felt it was more opinions and clash of emotions more than rational thought and it seemed only your inputs would help break the impasse. Apologies if that suggestion was inappropriate.

Someone did post about making a request for the ARAI type certification for the particular model of the vehicle and the ARAI website states that the certification data can only be shared by the manufacturer and not by ARAI to the public.

At this point, with the FIR and the police report and the correspondence you have had with the manufacturer, the only way to make the company come out clean would be to file a criminal negligence case or something in a court of law.

The manufacturer may only share the relevant data upon a court order and nothing less than that.
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Old 19th August 2018, 17:09   #373
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Why Didn't My Airbag Deploy?

https://www.clarkfountain.com/blog/2...ht-not-deploy/
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Old 19th August 2018, 18:22   #374
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My thoughts align with the majority of BHP-ians - At least the side airbags should have deployed


Quote:
This question was asked by MANY members. However, the OP who has responded to many individual posts has missed answering this one. May be he does not have a clear information on this and hence refrained from posting - There was a recall related to airbag deployment software - did this car go through the recall procedure and get the software updated? If not, is it fair to assume that Mahindra w(sh)ould have done the update during a regular service? What is the implication if the software was not updated? Could that possibly have caused the presumed error in airbag deployment?

[*]Will airbags deploy if the vehicle engine is switched off, but is ignition on? I am not sure of the exact specs of the 2013 XUV W8 - but immaterial of it having a push button start or key start - in case of an accident, if the vehicle turns off, it should still be in ignition ON. Now, I might be speculating and pardon me for that. Is it remotely possible that the engine got switched off as a result of the initial impact and the rest of the side impact was due to the momentum and inertia of motion while the engine was off. Will such a scenario still induce airbag deployments?[/list]
As per the manufacturer, they say that my vehicles software for side airbag was upgraded. I have had no time verify that but trust they are right.
Regarding the next point, I cannot say specifically for the Xuv500 but in general the airbag deployment system has a reserve charge provision so it doesn't affect if the ignition gets cutoff or battery gets disconnected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
Indeed very informative article that you have submitted. I think it's a real eye opener.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 19th August 2018 at 18:41. Reason: Back to back posts merged.
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Old 19th August 2018, 18:57   #375
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Default Re: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured)

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvindb4 View Post
Madhav's last surgery went off well and from the neuro brain surgery part the team has done its best. There are several other neuro issues with loss of hearing and neuro eyesight issues, that shall be addressed in the next few weeks. For now we have been asked to focus on aggressive speech, Comprehension, physio and occupational therapies and issues arising of his complete frontal cortex damage. Unfortunately we don't have an integrated facility in India to address so many issues simultaneously. The first 6 to 9 months are critical.
Frontal cortex damage can cause a change in personality and impulsive behavior/disinhibition and attention deficits. There could be a lot of challenges still ahead and we pray for the best. If your doctors ever recommend a checkup at NIMHANS, PM me. My wife is a neurologist there and we will be happy to be of help.

This particular case of the XUV is an example where the safety systems did not work at all pointing to suspect reliability due to poor engineering. Mahindra must be sued for the damages to a young person with years of life ahead of him as a result of all this.
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