[forty6]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

I waited for someone to offer up a gentler version of the truth. But, since none was forthcoming, I felt obligated to fulfill my role as the as the flag bearer of inconvenient truths on this forum.

So, @scorpian here's the truth for you. The probability that you will find a clean Z650 in the used market is next to NIL. The operative word here is "clean".

Nicely put.

Many points I completely agree with.

Most of the folks in the market are for a good deal, rather than a good bike. I t is not even a good deal on the bike of their choice, rather a good deal on any bike.

The other point mentioned is especially true for me. I have two bikes, and I love them to bits. Sometime back I decided I should get an adventure bike. And it has been a struggle deciding on which one to let go of. I put one on OLX and the amount being offered is mostly way off the mark, a few offered something I was ok with, but then vanished. And all that leads to me riding it , and every time I ride it, I feel like I am being unjust to it, and even before selling I start regretting the thought of selling it.

While I know every middle class person wanting or trying to get their dream big bike is stretching their budget by quite a lot, the ones in second hand market got to realise that if you want to spend 40-50% less on what is being quoted by a seller, assuming realistic price, you are going to struggle to be able to afford the bike. Because the price of the spares, and service are not going to fall, or rather there is not going to be a deal on it. And, you really can't enjoy what you can't afford. And since none of these bikes make sense, what's the point of getting them if you can't enjoy.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by Zanskar

That's true and I concur. I sold my Scott Metrix cycle for almost the same price as I bought it 2 years back for. The reason was cycle prices shooting through the roof but end of the day the buyer still got a better deal than to pay full price for a new bike.

Absolutely correct. If price paid at purchase is the reference, any seller of a good and clean used motorcycle today is either going to lose very little money or will in fact make money. The only place where sellers will lose money is in the cost of accessories. This is just plain truth today.

Buyers who torture themselves with the thought that sellers are not suffering enough have to get over that feeling and tell themselves that they are still getting a great deal compared to paying full price of new + the waiting time + the headaches to source different accessories + the cost and back and forth to get them fitted on their bikes.

Originally Posted by Samarth 619

..My Duke 390 makes 44 bhp in a wet weight of 150 kgs (= a Pulsar 220), and it was priced at 1.98 Lakh on road, during 2013 ending. Today, getting a decent replacement for this bike would cost upward of Rs. 3.5 Lakhs, plus no sir, it won't weigh 152 kgs, thank you BS6..

I am not fully literate about the mechanical aspects of the BS6 transition. Certainly, @Axe77 has repeatedly mentioned that his BS4 Ducati Multistrada feels more untethered compared to the BS6 Multis that he has ridden. Maybe there is something to it; or maybe it is placebo effect. But, all said and done, what @no_fear says is true - BS6 has not affected all makes and models equally. While some BS6 bikes do feel toned down (as compared to their BS4 predecessors), there are other machines whose owners report no such observations.

Coming to the KTMs, it is no secret at all that the original Duke 390 is still a mad-max like legend. The newer versions are all fit, finish and features minus the maniacal beast mode.

Originally Posted by no_fear

..I had put up a 2020 ZX 10R for sale last year. I have had so many time wasters come and bargain with me, that my faith in humanity was lost..

You want to hear a story?

I paid for a motorcycle in full and was to take delivery in a few days. The bike was still on the showroom floor with ZERO kms on the odo just waiting for pick-up. Then some life situations forced me to put it up for sale from the showroom itself. This was not a "brand new bike" in the same way that that term is used liberally in the used bike classifieds. This literally was in fact a BRAND NEW BIKE with ZERO kms; except that it was registered once. I was willing to take a 10% hit or even a 15% hit, which was more than reasonable considering that I had not even touched the bike. The offers I received ranged from 50% to 60% of on road cost. What's more; most of the offers rolled in from the people in my own groups and circles!! I mean there is being opportunistic and then there is this!! Talk about about loss of faith in humanity!!

Originally Posted by no_fear

..The 899 and 959 are two very different machines. The 959 has a much better engine, with con rods, crankshafts, valves and bearings borrowed directly from the 1299. It is vastly superior to the 899, and has better performance. The exhaust does weigh 3.5kg heavier but it helps with the airflow, heat and noise emissions better than the 899.

Your theory that older models are often better applies to smaller cc bikes like the RC 390 and Ninja 300, but I don't think it can be applied to every single bike or car. Your point that older models nowadays have more value for money is spot on

Thanks for this. Didn't know the finer aspects of these machines.

Originally Posted by no_fear

..In the end, I simply took the bike off the market, and sold it privately to a gentleman, who quoted me a fair price and did not resort to unnecessary bargaining and cheap tactics.

Originally Posted by forty6

if you want to spend 40-50% less on what is being quoted by a seller, assuming realistic price, you are going to struggle to be able to afford the bike.

When my bike finally sold, it was close to the price I was asking. The buyer was part of a group where everyone had the same bike. They were young and inexperienced in negotiations; which worked to their advantage in this case. Without hesitation, the spokesperson of the group straightaway told me that they had bought their previous bike in the group at what was currently market value for the bike in the used market. Then they incurred Rs. 40000 in engine repairs. Yes, you read that right - 40k on engine repairs. So, he was indirectly telling me that they had learnt their lesson. You get what you pay for. The bikes that are readily going for a discount have been royally rogerred by multiple parties.

Although he did not say as much, I could plainly see that they were willing to pay me the price I had quoted because they immediately saw the condition of the bike and my neatly organised folder of maintenance records.

But, in the end, I reduced my price a little bit to allow the buyers to feel dignified in the transaction. They too should feel that they were able to have a say in the price. Both of us walked away without any negative feelings.

Would I have liked a better price? Undoubtedly. I think that my bike sold for 15% less than its correct value. But, I pacify myself with the fact that it at least sold for 15% more than what other cheapsters were offering me. Plus, the buyer behaved in exemplary fashion. They were young. But, they demonstrated way more dignity in dealing with me than the more older buyers. I was happy to allow my bike to go to this bunch of enthusiasts who were earnest and who demonstrated good faith.

Cheers

[noo.b]

At the cost of dissing a particular region I would like to add my two cents as well.

In the North and more speicifically NCR almost every used big bike you can lay your hands on is a "first owner' bike, in spite of having changed hands 5-6 times. On top of that, most dealer stocked bikes are sold with buy back schemes, and come back to the dealers with a few thousand additional kilometers and no change in ownership in a year or two..

Now, in addition to this a lot of these undocumented owners would use el cheapo exhausts with no fueling alterations, bought for pennies, damaging the bikes in the process . In a few cases I've even observed a dealer selling an original aftermarket exhaust, from the bike he bought, separately and adorning the same bike with a fake exhaust off ali express and selling it off to a non suspecting owner.

With all of this happening I just could not get myself to put down my money on a used big bike and ended up buying new. Definitely felt bad that for the same money I could've bought a better, bigger bike. But at least I have warranty to fall back on if something goes wrong.

[iamahunter]

Partially agreeing to what Mohan says, but I think this is more from a sellers emotional point of view.
So while reading this post, I would request you to keep the emotional aspect aside and look at the practical point of view.

Firstly - No buyer who purchases the product for his personal use intends to give the seller a financial loss, he's rather concentrating on his financial savings.

Second - When buying a used bike from an unknown seller, there is no guarantee of the bike being clean. The service history is not always reliable as there are many things that can be done out of the service center.

Considering these points, say if as a buyer one purchase a bike which was 10L new and pays 8L as the seller demanded it under the "clean" bike act. Now there are high chances that the bike is not really clean, eventually making one spend a high amount on fixing the issue. Probably in that amount one could have actually got a new bike minus the headache and time spent of fixing it. So one spends same as a new bike, and still is the 2nd owner on the RC. 4-5 years down the line, it would make a difference - a single owner bike commands more respect and demands more price than a 2nd owner bike.

I am not saying that it is always the case, but there is no guarantee either. Its always a risk to get a used vehicle from an unknown seller.

Accessories - One customizes the bike with accessories as his/her own taste. They might be helpful but there is no rule which says that they're mandatory. So if one has a mindset that "you WILL need this" or "who rides without this" is incorrect. Moreover, from the insurance perspective, there are high chances that the additional accessories will only help in denying the claim, incase.

In the end, it's the demand - supply equation which will decide the rate and fate of the vehicle, quote higher and one might not be able to sell it.


Having said all this, the buyer's emotional connect with the bike is negligible compared to the the seller during the transaction, so he would concentrate more on the practical aspect. And so at times, a practical offer by a serious individual may seem like low-balling to the seller.

Disclaimer:
These are my view points and I do not wish to indulge in an argument, kindly do not make a personal attack on this.

[ajs85]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

I myself reversed my decision to sell not once, but twice. Both times, I verbally (without token) accepted an offer and then took my bike for weekend rides. The bike performed so flawlessly that I was filled with only one thought - if I were to pay the same amount (that I had accepted as sale price), will I get another used bike in the same impeccable condition that mine is in? The answer was a big no. The next question was if I top up the sale amount by say 30%, will I be able to buy my bike new? The answer to this too was no. So, I called the potential buyers and asked them to find another bike.

I was in the same situation pre-covid era, people quoted ridiculously low prices and wanted to lowball me for the accessories I had installed on the bike. When asked if I can remove and sell them separately the answer was never affirmative. Finally decided to keep her as long as she runs and not to upgrade or change, their loss when I was ready for her to let go and now new ones are more than 3 lacs.

[doga]

I think it works both ways. While I do agree getting stupid quotes is irritating and sometimes insulting I think buyer's are trying to insure against any future mishaps with the bike, chiefly engine.
Given we don't have annual inspections like say in the UK, there's less onus for the owner to maintain the bike, plus the displayed mileage is often suspect.
Recently I bought a used old gen R1 and in hindsight I was too nice with the seller who at the time seemed like a decent chap. I do feel I should have quoted lower as very few sedate rides later the bike threw a rod and I am now sitting with a junk engine. Did I notice anything wrong with the engine note when I test rode it? No. But I didn't get to take it past 5k rpm anyway. Would owners be ok with buyer's taking their bikes out and test them at say 10krpm to see if engine is sound or the gearbox is able to take the load? Probably not. I should admit that in my case there were other warning signs(not engine related) which I stupidly ignored but pretty sure stories abound of big bikes being sold with tampered odometers and dodgy history so it's not a friendly market. In general, unless the bike is still under warranty, the buyer is pretty much going by how the bike looks on the outside and whatever service history there is present. A short ride is not going to reveal most things.
There was a time when mainly enthusiasts owned big bikes and religiously maintained them but not so much now. These days you'd see big bikes more common and many are used for social media content creation(read drag racing). Given these circumstances, the buyer would naturally try to be ultra defensive.

Ask yourself this- who is the primary risk taker in a used big bike sale transaction?
Unless someone has a knack of identifying a genuine seller, the general goal of a buyer should be to get as good a deal as possible. And sadly this then becomes part of general market dynamics.

[kailashnj]

I agree with what @Iamhunter has said. The emotional aspect of the seller is more than that of the buyer and many times the seller is not able to let go as he has the connect with the bike.

In my all these riding years, I have always changed bikes every 2 years and never had any emotional connect with the bikes as for me the bike is a means of travelling and have fun and once, I am over with it, I will sell it off. Though I maintain my vehicles to the highest level as I know that as long as I am riding it, I have to keep it at its best or it can be a matter of life and death. So, it’s all in the mind.

I have had my share of superbikes too. Its unfortunate that seller who agree to sell the bike, accepts the token and then backs off. This is a breach of contract from the seller as once you have accepted the token, you are bound buy the contract of sale. This being in other country, the buyer could have easily sued the seller.

Another theory and that too a practical one. if the price of the new vehicle increases, it does not mean the prizes of the used bike will also increase. Vehicle is a depreciating asset. True if the prizes of the vehicle will fall, the prizes in the used market will fall too as the new vehicle has become cheaper.

I have known a person who bought the bike for 7.7 lakhs and now wants to sell his used bike for 8.5 lakhs after using it for 2 years as the price of the new bike is now 10 lakhs. The price increase is due to technology change and change to BS6 which is much better and clean. You can't sell the used bike at cost more than what you have paid for and that's why people like these are not able to sell their bikes in the market for years together.

Buyer is never torturing himself and thinking of other person's financial loss. He is thinking of what he would have done. So that's a wrong theory. Also if a person who wanted to buy an used bike, if bought brand new, that's good for him as he is getting the clean bike from factory with warranties and is the first owner. He will also then add accessories as per his needs and customize the bike.

[no_fear]

@kailash, iamahunter.

I have been on both sides of the coin. I have bought pre-owned bikes and sold them also. I am all for financial savings. I can understand everyone wants to account for their hard earned monies, and get the value for the purchase. However there is massive gap between being frugal and being cheap.

Majority of the buyers in the used bike market are in the latter camp. They are not considering financial savings but just throw absurd numbers hoping they win. And it is not just with bikes.

Try selling any electronic item on OLX, like an Ipad or a high end mobile phone. People will agree to your offer, show up with 50% less cash and then low ball you. Their rationale is that since the cash is already there, you will give in and just sell the item out of desperation as they are standing at your doorstep.

With all the talk of used bikes, and used bike dealerships selling junk bikes, ask this question. Where are all the good "clean" bikes. As Mohan, Axe and Athek said before, the good ones are already scooped up the moment the seller announces he is planning to sell them.

I own 9 superbikes at the moment. 3 are brand new, 6 are pre-owned. 5 of the pre-owned ones were picked up by me, simply because the seller / the dealer notified me well in advance even before the bike hit the market. I was ready with cash, talked with the seller, offered him the full asking amount, and closed the deal. I recently picked up a KTM 1190 RC8R that my agent got hold of, called me, and it was at my place 48 hours after speaking with the seller.

The current crop of used bikes floating in the used dealer market in NCR region are junk. It is due to the fact that honest sellers are tired of buyers' antics and don't wish to deal at all. They hire agents, pay them a few grand and get the bike sold privately. The ones that have been thrashed and changed hands multiple times get a good PPF coating and are sold at the dealerships.

My ending anecdote - last year, before I took possession of the Ducati V4SP, I was thinking of selling my V4S, as they are similar bikes on paper. I didn't see the point of keeping both. I told some folks I would consider selling the bike. Buyers showed up and offered me 10 lacs, 12 lacs and 14 lacs. For a 2018 Ducati V4S with a full system Akra, that retailed for above 36 lacs. I can understand depreciation, but that is downright mockery.

I decided it's not worth selling the bike but enjoy it to it's fullest. And that is my sentiment as a seller.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by doga

..Ask yourself this- who is the primary risk taker in a used big bike sale transaction?..

Originally Posted by noo.b

..every used big bike you can lay your hands on is a "first owner' bike, in spite of having changed hands 5-6 times...

Originally Posted by iamahunter

.. When buying a used bike from an unknown seller, there is no guarantee of the bike being clean. The service history is not always reliable as there are many things that can be done out of the service center..... Its always a risk to get a used vehicle from an unknown seller...

I agree with @iamhunter that there are many things that can be done outside the manufacturer's support framework. But, in general, if we are talking about bikes within the first three years of ownership and still with first owner, the likelihood that the first owner will go to a garage outside the official framework is almost NIL because that voids warranty.

Having said that, I also agree that buying a used vehicle from an unknown buyer always carries an element of risk and one has to factor that in in the price. This is why it is never a good idea to go shopping for a used bike in the open market. Certainly as @noo.b and @doga have said, the market is filled with dubious bikes. This is why it is important to realise that there is no compulsion at all. If one does not want to own risk, then one should buy new without a second thought. This option is always available to the buyer.

But, assuming you want cost savings and are ok with some risk, then the way to mitigate it is to buy through local networks where one has seen the motorcycle's life with the first owner for a long time. In my case at least, the guys who made lowball offers to me for my brand new bike (with zero kms on it) were my own friends. So, really this logic of the bike being unknown does not hold water in my case at least.

Originally Posted by doga

..Ask yourself this- who is the primary risk taker in a used big bike sale transaction?..

Originally Posted by iamahunter

So while reading this post, I would request you to keep the emotional aspect aside and look at the practical point of view...

Originally Posted by kailashnj

..In my all these riding years, I have always changed bikes every 2 years..

As motorcycle owners, we all have been on both sides of the transaction. So, let me ask you all this. When you all sold your bikes, what price did you find acceptable? Did you sell your bikes at 50% of its purchase price? Or did / will you accept offers that were within 20% of what the bike costs new? Answer that question to yourselves truthfully and things will become a lot more clearer.

Originally Posted by noo.b

...Definitely felt bad that for the same money I could've bought a better, bigger bike...

Originally Posted by iamahunter

..if as a buyer one purchase a bike which was 10L new and pays 8L....

Originally Posted by kailashnj

..Another theory and that too a practical one. if the price of the new vehicle increases, it does not mean the prizes of the used bike will also increase. Vehicle is a depreciating asset...

Originally Posted by ajs85

I was in the same situation pre-covid era, people quoted ridiculously low prices and wanted to lowball me....

As buyers, we can provide any rationale for the offers we make; and I do agree that all of you make very good points. But, ultimately the litmus test is in whether the seller agrees with the buyer's logic or not. It is that simple. So, let us ask ourselves this. From our collective past experiences, how many sellers agreed with our logic and sold us their bikes? Were we able to buy a used bike at a price that we thought was right in this market? Or did the seller/s decline and continue to keep their bikes and ride it? The answer to this question is all there is to it.

A market price comes about when the buying and the selling party come to an agreement on a number. If that does not happen at the number we quote, then we have the wrong number. Period.

The parallels for this are all around us. I have gone to builders' offices and presented very coherent arguments as to why their offerings are overpriced and why I would not pay that price. But, regardless of my decision to buy from him or not, the builder is in fact selling out all his inventory. So, whether I agree or disagree with him, the builder's price is the market price. It is as simple as that.

Of course tomorrow things may change if all of a sudden we have a glut of said product in the market, be it real estate or new bikes. But frankly, I don't see that situation coming about for motorcycles. Not in the near future anyways. For the next few years until the EVs hit (and hit in a big way), used bike buyers in the market are not going to find sellers who agree with buyers' valuation of their bikes, irrespective of how sound the buyers' logic is. This is just plain truth.

Originally Posted by no_fear

..Try selling any electronic item on OLX..

Tell me about it. See below. I listed a 6 month old lens for sale. It costs Rs. 8800 new. So, I asked for Rs. 7600 hoping to close at around 6k. This is the offer I got.

Cheers

[neil.jericho]

I dont think that TBHPian scorpian would have expected that his simple query would have generated such a flurry of responses from the motorcycling community on the forum. I would suggest that he reaches out to other enthusiasts in Goa, who ride superbikes and ask them to keep an eye out for any known Z650s that are in the market. Getting one that is registered in Goa might be difficult. However, plenty of them come up for sale in nearby states. Finding a KA registered Z650 should be pretty easy. The bike sold in truckloads.

As for all the other points that were discussed, there are lots of superbikes that come up for sale. Many of them are clean ones with low kilometers on the odometer. There is no shortage of them. Riders continue to upgrade to more expensive motorcycles. That said, yes, superbike sales have probably slowed down a bit as compared to maybe 6 months ago. At least, that is my reading of the superbike market, without analyzing the actual SIAM numbers. Covid or no Covid, big bikes are rolling off the showroom floors.

Coming to the pre-owned market, as a buyer or a seller, you just need to be patient. The right bike or buyer will come along. If you have the money and are willing to close a deal quickly, then there is nothing to worry about. Those who arent willing to be patient will have to cough up the full price and get a new motorcycle.

Sellers who are asking for ridiculous prices will continue to sit on their motorcycles and moan about the time wastage from all and sundry. If you price your motorcycle fairly, the right buyer will eventually come along. Like my friend no_fear mentioned, it took some time but he found the right buyer who offered him a fair price for the 2020 ZX10R.

Honestly, the preowned superbike market is the same as it always was. Nothing has changed.

[kailashnj]

Originally Posted by no_fear

I own 9 superbikes at the moment. 3 are brand new, 6 are pre-owned. 5 of the pre-owned ones were picked up by me, simply because the seller / the dealer notified me well in advance even before the bike hit the market.

Nice garage to have.

Also I have been at the both sides of the coin, so I am also aware of what's happening in the used bike market. When you are out to sell people try to take advantage and when you out to buy seller wants maximum buck for his vehicle. The same logic that you got when you are out to sell your bike, is not applicable when you are out to buy. I rest my case here. No point in dragging this further.

[sunilch]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Honestly, the preowned superbike market is the same as it always was. Nothing has changed.

This should summarize the discussion and close the topic I suppose

[iamahunter]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Those who arent willing to be patient will have to cough up the full price and get a new motorcycle.

Sellers who are asking for ridiculous prices will continue to sit on their motorcycles and moan about the time wastage from all and sundry.

If you price your motorcycle fairly, the right buyer will eventually come along.

These wordings kind-of sum up the used superbike market! Short and sweet.
Patience and Fair Price for buyer and seller are the key take away points.

[harmanjeet14]

Hi Quickfox11,

I was in same boat as you around a year and a half ago from now. Today I am an owner of a beautiful pre owned Ninja 650.

While members here have pointed out very valid points, I want to list a few things which worked in my favour:

1. When buying a pre loved automobile, no 1 rule is not to set any timelines. If you are in a hurry, better to buy a new vehicle even if you have to go a segment down. Even being based in Delhi NCR, which I consider as the best pre owned market, it took me around 6 months to find the correct motorcycle.
2. I shy away from dealers. Try to find a deal where you can directly connect with an owner. You not only get a better deal, but meeting the person who has been with the motorcycle gives you a sense about how well or badly kept the machine can be. For example, even though my motorcycle had mileage more than I was comfortable with, talking to the owner gave me a sense how he would have maintained the bike for all those miles. Also, always ask the owner to drive the bike first, and sit as a pillion. This gives you a sense of his driving skills.
3. If you have no option but to go ahead with a dealer, try to go for an example which is not sitting on the floor for too long. Understand owners history, and if possible reach out to him.
3. The 650s are one of the most reliable machines in the superbike world. Not much should go wrong with them unless they are really badly ridden.

Also keep your options open: Ninja, Versys etc. After Z900 these are the bikes which sell the most from Kawasaki stable. There are plenty examples out in the market. Keep searching. Just be ready to pull the trigger at the correct time.

[Samarth 619]

Originally Posted by no_fear

Just a factual correction.
The 899 and 959 are two very different machines. The 959 has a much better engine, with con rods, crankshafts, valves and bearings borrowed directly from the 1299. It is vastly superior to the 899, and has better performance. The exhaust does weigh 3.5kg heavier but it helps with the airflow, heat and noise emissions better than the 899.

Your theory that older models are often better applies to smaller cc bikes like the RC 390 and Ninja 300, but I don't think it can be applied to every single bike or car. Your point that older models nowadays have more value for money is spot on

You're right, they're not affecting each bike and car equally. But I don't agree with some bikes or cars being unaffected. The performance segment just innovates more, and hides the challenges a lot better.

I'd like you to think a bit long term and not just bikes from recent years. 2004 YZF R1 weighed 185 kgs fully filled, and it wasn't even the best techno marvel the company ever produced...

Welcome to Euro 3 in 2007, and now even 600cc's used to cross 190 kgs easily. Things aren't looking slim ever since then, you mght've guessed. Since then we're shaving off weight in frames, lights, wheels (yes, sadly) and plastics, and getting big horsepower through short strokes and other changes which was not techno improvements, rather they're tune ups.
Many a times a 2006-7 GSXR or CBR 1000R would beat a newer liter class hands down in torque curve in midrange or low end.
Ducati got by the weight crisis, when they used the huge engine as a frame itself, bolting on parts to it, so they're much better off. So, clever engineering helped here and there.
Fuel injection helped. Variable valve timing helped. Other changes helped, these changes fought a good battle, I won't deny.

But again, its starkly noticeable that 959 Panigale was launched at Euro/BS4 compliance, and same for Street Triple 765...
Why would we end up with a cubic capacity boost, right on the brink of a new emission standard? Suspicious... won't you agree?

I'm not saying 959 is bad, no sir its awesome.
I'm saying if we forced the older 899 engine, to comply with BS4, how would it perform as a bike? Would it be better than older one on same cc?