[quickfox11]

Originally Posted by no_fear

@quickfox11

Never pick a media bike for sale.
.
.
Stay away

Thank you very much, A.

I did a youtube search for reviews of that bike and was mildly shocked to see the number of people who had accessed it. Then I realized a media vehicle is no more just a 'media' vehicle. It's a 'social-media-content' vehicle. Anyone with a @handlename can claim it and the rest it a very questionable online opinion floating in our digiverse forever.

Hunt continues..

[no_fear]

Originally Posted by quickfox11

Thank you very much, A.

I did a Youtube search for reviews of that bike and was mildly shocked to see the number of people who had accessed it. Then I realized a media vehicle is no more just a 'media' vehicle. It's a 'social-media-content' vehicle.

Hunt continues..

A dealer gets a media / demo bike from manufacturer at a subsidized rate. Usually the dealer sells it back to manufacturer, after 1-2 years. In India most don't. Dealers want to maximize the advertising and content creation to get "eyeballs", hence they will loan out the bike to anyone with a social media account. It's a way of maximizing the return on the money sunk into a demo bike. Since it's sunk cost, the dealer has no incentive to keep the bike in good running shape. Plus a lot of these bikes are dropped on their sides by so called media journalists. As a result, many of the bikes have damaged or broken fairings, bent handlebars, or even bent frames. It's very easy to repair plastic fairings and repaint but the underlying issues are all hidden until you buy the bike.

I know some bikes have been well taken care of, and sold as pre-owned by reputable dealers but that's a minority.

Good luck with your search.

[scorpian]

Where can I find a preloved z650 Kawasaki? I am searching hi and low for one in clean condition. Any leads anyone?

[bf1983]

Originally Posted by scorpian

Where can I find a preloved z650 Kawasaki? I am searching hi and low for one in clean condition. Any leads anyone?

The Z650 is a bike that people usually sell off quickly when they upgrade so you should find quite a few in the market sparingly used. However it will be difficult to find one in Goa. You might have to buy one from Mumbai, Pune or Bangalore and transfer it to Goa. One good thing is that the Z650 has few electronics so little can go wrong. Just make sure that the bike has done it's regular services as it has a relatively short 6 month interval. So if the owner has skipped many services that might be a problem. If the the bike has a service history that would be recommended.

The Z650 had a revision in 2020 where it received a bigger headlight with LED lighting, LCD dash and a few other minor updates. Those command a premium in the used market but the engine, suspension, chassis and brakes are all same as the older model so I unless you are getting a good deal on the newer model I would suggest saving your money and getting the older model instead.

[scorpian]

Originally Posted by bf1983

The Z650 is a bike that people usually sell off quickly
The Z650 had a revision .

Thank you for your inputs appreciate them. I prefer the 650 as it can be put through its paces and used well in daily run abouts compared to litre class bikes. Also this would be a good upgrade for me from riding the 390.Dont want to jump directly to a litre class.
I am ok to buying bikes from elsewhere but yes Goa preferred. Most of the bikes I have seen as like three owners etc which do not inspire confidence.
Since it's my first superbike want to take it slowly and surely.Dont want to burn my fingers.
If anyone comes across any leads please do share.
Regards
Manoj.

[bf1983]

Originally Posted by scorpian

... I prefer the 650 as it can be put through its paces and used well in daily run abouts compared to litre class bikes.

Don't get me wrong. I myself have the Z650 as my only bike for the last 2 years. And I take it everywhere including grocery shopping and overnight rides 😁

But I ain't selling mine anytime soon. There are times I keep thinking I should upgrade but then ask myself where I can use the extra power on our roads? So I stop thinking of upgrading and enjoy riding the Z650.

It's a bike that doesn't grab too much attention so you can park it anywhere without worrying too much about people doing stuff to your bike.

Good luck in your search.

[scorpian]

Originally Posted by bf1983

Don't get me wrong. I myself have the Z650 as my only bike for the last 2 years. And I take it everywhere including grocery shopping.I keep thinking I should upgrade but then ask myself where I can use the extra power on our roads?
Good luck in your search.

You echo all my points perfectly. No grabbing attention,can be used everyday,no worries about electronic issues. This are all factors that pull me towards the z650. I think 650 is plenty power for daily use.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by scorpian

Where can I find a preloved z650 Kawasaki? I am searching hi and low for one in clean condition. Any leads anyone?

Originally Posted by bf1983

...But I ain't selling mine anytime soon.

I waited for someone to offer up a gentler version of the truth. But, since none was forthcoming, I felt obligated to fulfill my role as the as the flag bearer of inconvenient truths on this forum.

So, @scorpian here's the truth for you. The probability that you will find a clean Z650 in the used market is next to NIL. The operative word here is "clean".

It didn't used to be like this. Just 5 to 7 years ago, things were very different. You could find used bikes in mint condition and with barely any miles on the odo. Now? Not so much.

Back then, manufacturers were coming into India and setting up CKD operations and pricing was arguably reasonable. The riding community was growing exponentially and it was not uncommon for people to change bikes every couple of years as they journeyed to find their unique riding style and preferences.

The pandemic and the resulting supply chain disruptions have completely changed the equations. Big motorcycles are now super expensive and most aren't readily available in stock.

Add to that the fact that wages have stagnated for most people. Sure, if you are a techie in tech, these are profitable years for you; but for most everyone else, wages are either stagnant or aren't keeping up with inflation.

Big bike buyers fall into two broad categories. The first bunch are outright rich. This is a small and rarefied group; the rhythms of which are hard to discern. The second group is the more populous one. This group typically buys their new big bikes during a small life window when they are filled with optimism - young; likely single; or just married and yet to be parents; or are new parents of babies that hardly require much expenditure. Newly positive cash situations in their lives allow them to feel indulgent. Usually it takes about about 15 years for someone to transition from this highly optimistic point in their lives to the stage where increasing financial responsibilities, advancing age, questionable health, and stagnating wages start to stare them in the face. But, the pandemic years just shrunk that timeline by a full decade, if not more.

Result? Gone are the days when people could change bikes every couple of years. With the eye-watering prices of vehicles, first owners are acutely aware that they can't just go and get their next bike effortlessly. Add to this the fact that going up each rung in the bike ladder involves almost a 100% premium over the last purchase for barely any increase in capability; and more and more people are seeing the sense in not selling their bikes as long such bikes are in good condition. This is what @bf1983 is saying in his post.

Also gone are the days when big bikes were garage ornaments that a second buyer could get for a hugely discounted price. These days anyone who buys a bike is riding it good and proper.

So, a sale of a "clean" bike will only happen today if:

• The seller is relocating and / or is in bad need of cash. But, these are corner cases and don't form the bulk of sellers
• The first owner has had his fill so to speak. These bikes tend to have many many miles on them.Typically about 5k to 10k kms per calendar year of ownership. But, the mileage will not really depress their sale value.

Other than these two conditions, clean bikes with low miles will never hit the market so to speak.

Aside from the above dynamics, there is a third dimension at play. Earnest first owners who put up their vehicles for sale are bombarded with such ridiculously low offers that they feel disgusted and withdraw from the sale process. See below.

This is now par for the course. Sellers of good and clean bikes may list their bikes for sale thinking that they will upgrade or whatever. But, when it comes to a point of actually completing the sale, the fact that they are giving away a very good machine that they cannot easily replace will create lots of second thoughts and will likely stall the sale.

I myself reversed my decision to sell not once, but twice. Both times, I verbally (without token) accepted an offer and then took my bike for weekend rides. The bike performed so flawlessly that I was filled with only one thought - if I were to pay the same amount (that I had accepted as sale price), will I get another used bike in the same impeccable condition that mine is in? The answer was a big no. The next question was if I top up the sale amount by say 30%, will I be able to buy my bike new? The answer to this too was no. So, I called the potential buyers and asked them to find another bike.

This may not be true of all buyers; but it is true of the majority. Potential buyers of used bikes are (subconsciously) less interested in getting a good vehicle and more interested in making sure that the first owner takes a financial loss.

Case in point, even after spending months to years (in one case) searching, two people in my group just could not find a used vehicle. No one would sell them a good used bike at the prices they quoted. The issue was that the buyers demanded a discount of almost 40% to 50% from the price that the first owner possibly paid. And no seller entertained this logic. Both friends were ultimately forced to buy new.

My friends unfortunately didn't understand that the logic of discounting from a price paid at the time of purchase is irrelevant when vehicle prices are going thru the roof. I mean let us say that Triumph had lowered the price of the Tiger instead of raising it. So, instead of the bikes having gone from 15 lacs in 2017 to 19 lacs now, let us say that the price is now 9 lacs on road. Now, if a seller demanded 10 lacs because he paid 15 lacs for it in 2017, will any buyer accept that logic? Or will they say "When the price of new is 9 lacs on road, why will I pay you 10 lacs for a used bike?" So, if the price of a new bike is the benchmark when the price falls, why should it be any different when the price goes up?

In today's environment, buyers will pay a premium for good used bikes; because most sellers don't really need to sell at all and supply of new bikes isn't exactly plentiful. So, if a buyer is not ready for this reality in the used market, it is best for them to buy new.

Sorry if this post is a bit long. But this is a thread about used bike transactions and I thought I will take this opportunity to lay out some truths for everyone's benefit.

Cheers

[AtheK]

One of the best posts I have read in some time @mohansrides your thought process is spot on. If you want a well kept pre owned bike you need to wait, and wait long and be ready to buy it as soon as it hits the market. The bikes that have been recently sold that I know of, have been generally picked within the riding group itself. Clean bikes sell in a jiffy these days, reason there are not many out there, and if there are, people in riding group already have eye on them. I personally keep getting offers for my 959, just because some one tells them that it is a clean bike, even though personally I am not ready to sell it.

Also a bike which is not clean is now getting famous very very quickly, I personally know a Ducati that has been on sale for over a year now and price has come down significantly and still no takers. Reason being that it was an accidental bike and pretty much everyone knows that it's not a clean bike. The social media and riding groups helps quite a bit.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by AtheK

... be ready to buy it as soon as it hits the market...

And be ready to pay the price the seller is asking. Period. The more you negotiate and try to drive the price down, the less the probability that you are getting said clean bike.

Another major factor that buyers lose out on is in being lightweights during the negotiation with regards to accessories. If the accessories are functional rather than cosmetic, the seller has every right to factor them into the asking price. Functional accessories like guards are almost mandatory. In our roads, no one rides without them. Enhancements like lights and luggage too typically add value and a potential buyer would anyways add them.

But, most buyers use this a cheap negotiating tactic and tell the seller to lower the price because he personalized the bike for himself.

In my case, I told my buyers that I would remove the accessories then and they would not accept.

All this demonstrates unfairness and greed on the part of the buyer where they want to get as much for as little. Result? In this market, they walk away with nothing.

Originally Posted by AtheK

The bikes that have been recently sold that I know of, have been generally picked within the riding group itself.

BMW GS bikes are a great example. Enough of them change hands and we typically never hear about them. A whisper to a riding mate and the bike is gone. There are literally people with 18-20 lacs in FD just waiting for someone to sell. One whiff of a clean bike for sale and they pounce.

Cheers

[Axe77]

Superbly on point post @Mohansrides.

Originally Posted by mohansrides

Other than these two conditions, clean bikes with low miles will never hit the market so to speak.

I’d add one more aspect to this. Big miles (in a bike context) actually don’t bother me that much. I’d sooner buy a 4 year old bike with 30,000 kms on it than a similar age bike with 1400 kms. I know that a biker who rides decent kms and rides long is more likely to maintain his bike well, than someone who’s only use is going to the local Starbucks once every other month.

This may not be true of all buyers; but it is true of the majority. Potential buyers of used bikes are (subconsciously) less interested in getting a good vehicle and more interested in making sure that the first owner takes a financial loss.

THIS!!

People are much more focused on getting “a deal” and squeezing out a seller rather than getting a good bike that will give them a rewarding ownership experience. I’d in a heartbeat pay a premium if I was confident about the ownership history of a bike rather than get a killer deal on a dubiously owned / maintained machine. Penny wise pound foolish to say the least.

Your whatsapp message is a good example of buyers who don’t know the wood for the trees. These are the kind of guys who go around wasting sellers’ time and will equally chicken out of transactions at the last mile even when the buyer doesn’t. Sometimes that last 15/20,000 rupee reduction that the buyer is looking for before inking a deal is literally about half the cost of his next set of tyres or a good piece of personal protective equipment or luggage. Its something he’ll spend without thinking twice on some other aspect of bike ownership. And yet - he’ll be looking to haggle that amount to the point that he would lose the deal itself.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by Axe77

..I’d sooner buy a 4 year old bike with 30,000 kms on it than a similar age bike with 1400 kms. I know that a biker who rides decent kms and rides long is more likely to maintain his bike well, than someone who’s only use is going to the local Starbucks once every other month.

Correct. Big bikes that are used well also age much better. We have seen this time and again. Modern ICE engines are good for upwards of a lac and half of kms as long as they are well maintained. In any case, most of us will not even come close to testing the limits of our bike's engines. Up until recently, I thought that the Japanese were the standard bearers in terms of reliability and longevity; but these days, I have realised that almost no major manufacturer makes a bad bike. There are Triumphs pushing a lac kms on the odo and their owners are not even thinking about selling!!

Originally Posted by Axe77

..I’d in a heartbeat pay a premium if I was confident about the ownership history of a bike rather than get a killer deal on a dubiously owned / maintained machine. Penny wise pound foolish to say the least.

Your recent acquisition is a great example of choosing the right bike and being fair. I don't say it often. But, having personally known you, that is one trait that I admire in your dealings. Waste little time and stay fair. Any nominal excess payments can be recouped through earnings down the road. But time and relationships cannot be easily salvaged once they are lost. And invariably constant haggling fulfills exactly that one purpose - to cause irrecoverable (albeit intangible) losses on either side. Buyer gets no bike. Seller gets no money. Everyone walks away pissed off and hating the other party.

Ideally, it is best to figure out a fair price for a make/model/year/mileage before one goes for looking for a bike. That way, little time is lost of either party when the process starts. It goes without saying that if a seller has priced their product unfairly, the market will beat him down sooner rather than later.

Originally Posted by Axe77

.. And yet - he’ll be looking to haggle that amount to the point that he would lose the deal itself.

Happens every single time.

[Zanskar]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

My friends unfortunately didn't understand that the logic of discounting from a price paid at the time of purchase is irrelevant when vehicle prices are going thru the roof. I mean let us say that Triumph had lowered the price of the Tiger instead of raising it. So, instead of the bikes having gone from 15 lacs in 2017 to 19 lacs now, let us say that the price is now 9 lacs on road. Now, if a seller demanded 10 lacs because he paid 15 lacs for it in 2017, will any buyer accept that logic? Or will they say "When the price of new is 9 lacs on road, why will I pay you 10 lacs for a used bike?" So, if the price of a new bike is the benchmark when the price falls, why should it be any different when the price goes up?

In today's environment, buyers will pay a premium for good used bikes; because most sellers don't really need to sell at all and supply of new bikes isn't exactly plentiful. So, if a buyer is not ready for this reality in the used market, it is best for them to buy new.

That's true and I concur. I sold my Scott Metrix cycle for almost the same price as I bought it 2 years back for. The reason was cycle prices shooting through the roof but end of the day the buyer still got a better deal than to pay full price for a new bike.

Visited a used bike showroom recently and all I could see was Harleys in stock, maybe because Harley left India. They are potential good buys if someone is ready to maintain them on their own with minimum help from the service centres.
In fact in used bike space I feel Japanese bikes are the best bet because of reliability and access to service. Triumph is good too in the long run.
Italians are finicky to maintain imo.
I myself have plans to upgrade from my Duke 390 to Z900RS or similar in the retro bike space and the major criteria is easy to maintain fuss free bike that I can keep even after electrification of bikes. Next 10-15 years is the only time to enjoy the thrum of a sweet 2/4 cylinders engine before things go silent.

[Samarth 619]

A very good, eye opening post by @mohanrides. To add to what he said, the new emissions' regulations are not doing any good to motorcycle manufacturers.

Vehicles are getting bigger, heavier, slower, less fuel efficient, costlier, more silent (ok this may be a good thing), etc. (either few or all of these).
To negate the performance effects, many went up to cc scale:- Street Triple 675 became 765, Panigale 899 became 959 and so on...

The bottom line is emission regulations increased at a higher rate than technology within these 10-15 years, making any increase boil down to just maybe a paper increase (the older "grunt" is missing though the rev range), or a cc increase. Ain't no replacement for displacement, no more truer than it is right now, and the last 10 years.
Techniques such as Fuel injection, multiple spark plugs per cylinder, etc played their part in emission regulation, but only to an extent which is far gone. Each level increment in Euro/BS regulations demands upto 3-5 times lower emissions per chemical.


In short:- Older vehicles are lighter in weight and higher performing in general. Or they are of lower cc, which means they're probably more efficient as well.
Compare 899 Panigale to 959 Panigale. 5 kgs more, out of which 3.5 is due to just the exhaust only. 5 kg is not a big deal, but from Euro 1 to Euro 5, its a huge deal.

So, the older owner is also getting an inferior vehicle when he/she upgrades, its a fact for some brands at least. This also deters them from selling their older vehicle, unless it has developed problems. Again.. the clean bike theory stands correct.

My Duke 390 makes 44 bhp in a wet weight of 150 kgs (= a Pulsar 220), and it was priced at 1.98 Lakh on road, during 2013 ending.
Today, getting a decent replacement for this bike would cost upward of Rs. 3.5 Lakhs, plus no sir, it won't weigh 152 kgs, thank you BS6.

So again, in my place would you sell it off for its replacement? Its no superbike, agreed, but you can relate strongly.

[no_fear]

Both mohanrides and axe have pretty much covered why getting used bikes in good condition is rather slim.

Majority of used bike buyers think its very normal to quote lowball offers and take sellers for a ride. They think its a psychological victory, if they get to keep an additional 15-20k in their pockets.

I had put up a 2020 ZX 10R for sale last year. I have had so many time wasters come and bargain with me, that my faith in humanity was lost. One guy put a deposit, then saw a lower price elsewhere and came back to re-negotiate. This is after he already negotiated with me on a certain price. I returned his deposit and told him to get lost. In the end, I simply took the bike off the market, and sold it privately to a gentleman, who quoted me a fair price and did not resort to unnecessary bargaining and cheap tactics.

Originally Posted by Samarth 619

To negate the performance effects, many went up to cc scale:- Street Triple 675 became 765, Panigale 899 became 959 and so on...

Compare 899 Panigale to 959 Panigale. 5 kgs more, out of which 3.5 is due to just the exhaust only. 5 kg is not a big deal, but from Euro 1 to Euro 5, its a huge deal.

Just a factual correction.

The 899 and 959 are two very different machines. The 959 has a much better engine, with con rods, crankshafts, valves and bearings borrowed directly from the 1299. It is vastly superior to the 899, and has better performance. The exhaust does weigh 3.5kg heavier but it helps with the airflow, heat and noise emissions better than the 899.

Your theory that older models are often better applies to smaller cc bikes like the RC 390 and Ninja 300, but I don't think it can be applied to every single bike or car. Your point that older models nowadays have more value for money is spot on