Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!

Sam Kapasi · 1st January 2007, 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelfire

Hey...just went through the manual....it says tht i have to switch on th Non fadin output to change the sub out to rear out...Cause the player has only 2 pre-outs...Any idea what this non fading out put is????
And hydra..its a pio5650..

A non fading out, like the name suggests, is a pre out unaffected by the fader settings. Usually used for a subwoofer.

angelfire · 2nd January 2007, 08:42

But SAm...If i turn off the NOfad...there is no output from the rears...
This 2 RCA pre out is confusing...Cause there Sub out too in the head unit...And when i turn ON th Nofad...the Sub on\off menu dissappears.....

navin · 2nd January 2007, 11:42

[quote=elf;346416]
This may be a silly question from an uneducated country bumpkin, but is there any way to 'hard' tune the sound coming out of your speakers (not from the H/U) without having an amp? I have some lovely (in my opinion at least) Infinity 6010cs components up front & a pair of Ref 9613 coaxes in the rear. No sub, no amp.
[quote]

Elf you are now talking my language. Yes one can "hard" tune a speaker. It involves tinkering with the crossover. With your components it is easier since there is a box. Some moons back I did tune the same components but that was to reduce the forwardness of the sound (now please note that we are talking of 0.5db differences). There is a thread on this forum covering this.

Similarly you can build an external crossover for your 9613 coax speakers. I use old plastic visiting card hoxes as housings.

Sam will tell you that the road I am leading you on is fairly dangerous and prone to mishap but I belive it is a superb learning expereince (nicer sound to me is just a by product).

Now the bad news. Given your speakers and the fact that you dont have an amp I wonder if hard tuning can significanlty increase the bass levels. THe reason being is that hard tuining in this case will be passive and that would rob some of the energy from the small amp in your HU.

navin · 2nd January 2007, 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelfire

But SAm...If i turn off the NOfad...there is no output from the rears...
This 2 RCA pre out is confusing...Cause there Sub out too in the head unit...And when i turn ON th Nofad...the Sub on\off menu dissappears.....

angelfire. i think there is some confusion. please detail your components and connection.

I assume your (2 pre out) HU is connected to an amp or 2. The amps are feeding front and rear speakers and a sub.

Now one of the outputs on the HU is non fading. This really meaning that as you fade from front to rear the non fading output will remaing constant with a LPF on (since it wold be for a sub). now if the amp to which this output is connected has it's HPF filter on you will get no output. I am sorry if this sounds silly but I have seen this before.

tsk1979 · 2nd January 2007, 12:19

Coming back to discussion of front Vs rear speakers:
Some Pioneer models have 2 way crossover(HPF and LPF),
So I guess with adjusting the LPF to around 100Hz for rear channels will good and a separate crossover is not needed?
My Pioneer 4750 has something called Front Image Enhancer(FIE). I enabled this and found that now rear speakers just emit bass with front speakers tackling all other sounds.
Is this what a separate crossover will do?

navin · 2nd January 2007, 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsk1979

My Pioneer 4750 has something called Front Image Enhancer(FIE). I enabled this and found that now rear speakers just emit bass with front speakers tackling all other sounds.
Is this what a separate crossover will do?

The FIE I think rolls of higher frequencies from the rear speakers hence the above effect.

navin · 2nd January 2007, 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by determinus

Thanks Navin. Gunbir advised against the ED, so ruling that out.

Can you listen to them before buying?

elf · 2nd January 2007, 15:20

Thanks navin. Though no visiting card boxes for me for now. Shall bother Sam to fiddle with my front components when I see him next (Sam - forewarned, forearmed & all that).

Many moons ago I'd opened & fiddled around with some screws in the Pioneer 7650 H/U installed in Dad's car. Got boomy sound for about a week, then nothing - I'd slow fried the H/U. Good learning experience too - my butt ached for a week.

Sam Kapasi · 2nd January 2007, 15:22

Elf please don't listen to navin lol.

Trust me, as of now there is no way to INCREASE the bass. Even Navin's way will probably reduce everything else, thereby giving you the illusion that your bottom end has increased.
In effect your bottom end will ache for more than a week, if anything stops working and your wife finds out you did some fingering with your hard earned car stereo.

navin · 2nd January 2007, 16:34

Sam you are certainly not adventourous. All I was hoping to do was roll the mids and hf of by say 1-2db and it would given Elf the impression of a better bass. The Max Nominal SPL of the speaker would be reduced a tad though.

Elf, by screws I assume the presets. Well I would not go near an active circuit without a scope and good multimeter to help (preferably a DSO). What I am suggesting is not so drastic.

In all fairmess I did warn Elf that there would some energy loss.

angelfire · 2nd January 2007, 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by navin

angelfire. i think there is some confusion. please detail your components and connection.

I assume your (2 pre out) HU is connected to an amp or 2. The amps are feeding front and rear speakers and a sub.

Now one of the outputs on the HU is non fading. This really meaning that as you fade from front to rear the non fading output will remaing constant with a LPF on (since it wold be for a sub). now if the amp to which this output is connected has it's HPF filter on you will get no output. I am sorry if this sounds silly but I have seen this before.

Well here`s are my components..
Headnit is pio 5650..with 2rca preouts..
Accordin to the manual..it just says Dual Rca preout..Nowhere mention about Front+rear or anythin like that
All the rca`s are connected to the sony 504 amp...
Front channel from the amp is connected to Jbl gto427`s with HPF on at 80 hz
Rear channel from the amp is connected to pio 2090`s...With LPF off

Now when i turn on the NONFAD...there is Output from the rear speakers...
With the NOFAD off..There is no output from the rears...What seem to be the problem???

elf · 2nd January 2007, 18:31

@navin: The H/U wasn't live when I messed with the screws inside. Even I know that it's bad to fiddle with live electronics (Kenwood home amp, 1983, slight jolt to the nervous system, big thwack on the noggin from Mom).

@Sam: Me man. My money. My system. My speakers. My hard earning. My wish. Don't show this to wifey.

@Sam, navin:
I now undarshtan. I no tuch syshtam. I no phry syshtam. Simpal.

Vid6639 · 2nd January 2007, 19:24

elfie, when navin meant active it wasnt exactly that the H/U was powered on but the active compinents in the HU.

capacitors and resistors are passive devices. whereas active would be a transistor based/amplifier part of the circuit which is considered as active components. any change with these would have to be very careful as they are not predictable and will lead to something getting blown up if you donty know what you are doin or dont have proper tools to handle them.

navin · 2nd January 2007, 23:19

actually active devices are as preditable as passive devices it is just that once you have access to powered devices the likely hood of blowing up something goes up a bit. As long as one does not run foul of Krichoff's Laws one can be reasonably safe.

Sam Kapasi · 3rd January 2007, 00:36

Sheesh, I thought I left Thevenin and Kirchoff back in electronics school. :(

2nd January 2007, 08:42	#4982
angelfire BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Mangalore/Chicago Posts: 251 Thanked: Once View My Garage	But SAm...If i turn off the NOfad...there is no output from the rears... This 2 RCA pre out is confusing...Cause there Sub out too in the head unit...And when i turn ON th Nofad...the Sub on\off menu dissappears.....
	() Thanks

2nd January 2007, 11:42	#4983
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,199 Thanked: 9,308 Times	[quote=elf;346416] This may be a silly question from an uneducated country bumpkin, but is there any way to 'hard' tune the sound coming out of your speakers (not from the H/U) without having an amp? I have some lovely (in my opinion at least) Infinity 6010cs components up front & a pair of Ref 9613 coaxes in the rear. No sub, no amp. [quote] Elf you are now talking my language. Yes one can "hard" tune a speaker. It involves tinkering with the crossover. With your components it is easier since there is a box. Some moons back I did tune the same components but that was to reduce the forwardness of the sound (now please note that we are talking of 0.5db differences). There is a thread on this forum covering this. Similarly you can build an external crossover for your 9613 coax speakers. I use old plastic visiting card hoxes as housings. Sam will tell you that the road I am leading you on is fairly dangerous and prone to mishap but I belive it is a superb learning expereince (nicer sound to me is just a by product). Now the bad news. Given your speakers and the fact that you dont have an amp I wonder if hard tuning can significanlty increase the bass levels. THe reason being is that hard tuining in this case will be passive and that would rob some of the energy from the small amp in your HU.
	() Thanks

2nd January 2007, 12:19	#4985
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,717 Thanked: 22,825 Times View My Garage	Coming back to discussion of front Vs rear speakers: Some Pioneer models have 2 way crossover(HPF and LPF), So I guess with adjusting the LPF to around 100Hz for rear channels will good and a separate crossover is not needed? My Pioneer 4750 has something called Front Image Enhancer(FIE). I enabled this and found that now rear speakers just emit bass with front speakers tackling all other sounds. Is this what a separate crossover will do?
	() Thanks

2nd January 2007, 15:20	#4988
elf BANNED Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bombay Posts: 1,039 Thanked: 13 Times View My Garage	Thanks navin. Though no visiting card boxes for me for now. Shall bother Sam to fiddle with my front components when I see him next (Sam - forewarned, forearmed & all that). Many moons ago I'd opened & fiddled around with some screws in the Pioneer 7650 H/U installed in Dad's car. Got boomy sound for about a week, then nothing - I'd slow fried the H/U. Good learning experience too - my butt ached for a week. Last edited by elf : 2nd January 2007 at 15:22.
	() Thanks

2nd January 2007, 15:22	#4989
Sam Kapasi Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mumbai (but wat Posts: 6,997 Thanked: 2,378 Times View My Garage	Elf please don't listen to navin lol. Trust me, as of now there is no way to INCREASE the bass. Even Navin's way will probably reduce everything else, thereby giving you the illusion that your bottom end has increased. In effect your bottom end will ache for more than a week, if anything stops working and your wife finds out you did some fingering with your hard earned car stereo.
	() Thanks

2nd January 2007, 16:34	#4990
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,199 Thanked: 9,308 Times	Sam you are certainly not adventourous. All I was hoping to do was roll the mids and hf of by say 1-2db and it would given Elf the impression of a better bass. The Max Nominal SPL of the speaker would be reduced a tad though. Elf, by screws I assume the presets. Well I would not go near an active circuit without a scope and good multimeter to help (preferably a DSO). What I am suggesting is not so drastic. In all fairmess I did warn Elf that there would some energy loss. Last edited by navin : 2nd January 2007 at 16:36.
	() Thanks

2nd January 2007, 18:31	#4992
elf BANNED Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bombay Posts: 1,039 Thanked: 13 Times View My Garage	@navin: The H/U wasn't live when I messed with the screws inside. Even I know that it's bad to fiddle with live electronics (Kenwood home amp, 1983, slight jolt to the nervous system, big thwack on the noggin from Mom). @Sam: Me man. My money. My system. My speakers. My hard earning. My wish. Don't show this to wifey. @Sam, navin: I now undarshtan. I no tuch syshtam. I no phry syshtam. Simpal. Last edited by elf : 2nd January 2007 at 18:33.
	() Thanks

2nd January 2007, 19:24	#4993
Vid6639 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Bangalore Posts: 17,730 Thanked: 43,483 Times View My Garage	elfie, when navin meant active it wasnt exactly that the H/U was powered on but the active compinents in the HU. capacitors and resistors are passive devices. whereas active would be a transistor based/amplifier part of the circuit which is considered as active components. any change with these would have to be very careful as they are not predictable and will lead to something getting blown up if you donty know what you are doin or dont have proper tools to handle them.
	() Thanks

2nd January 2007, 23:19	#4994
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,199 Thanked: 9,308 Times	actually active devices are as preditable as passive devices it is just that once you have access to powered devices the likely hood of blowing up something goes up a bit. As long as one does not run foul of Krichoff's Laws one can be reasonably safe.
	() Thanks

3rd January 2007, 00:36	#4995
Sam Kapasi Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mumbai (but wat Posts: 6,997 Thanked: 2,378 Times View My Garage	Sheesh, I thought I left Thevenin and Kirchoff back in electronics school. :(
	() Thanks