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Old 30th August 2021, 13:09   #14221
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuisha110HP View Post
Need some suggestions to upgrade the audio setup in my Skoda Rapid. I have changed the stock front speakers to Mercury CE-165 components.

Now I am thinking of undertaking the second stage. I am searching for options to get maximum clarity from the Comps and add that bottom end to my music.

If I have to narrate my audio preference, I like my audio to be played at a lower volume with clarity and tight crisp bass. The bass has to be on point and on notes, not overpowering in any respect. Much like the sound signature of Bose headphones and not as bright as say Sony ones.

My questions are:

a) Should I go ahead with a decent 4 channel amp and power the components and use the remaining two channels for a full trunk Sub-woofer- preferably a 6-8 inches.

b) Get a good two-channel amp for front components and install an under-seat subwoofer?

c) How much improvement will be there if I add an amp to power the comps and replace the back speaker with better ones like Morel Coaxials?

Thanks in advance.
You can use 2 channels of a 4 channel amp to power a subwoofer by bridging the 2 channels. Just make sure the subwoofer impedance is at least 4 ohms.

A 6" or 8" subwoofer will not produce a lot of deep bass. Bass unfortunately is directly related to the quantum of air moved.

Under-seat subwoofers work if you want o supplement the mid-bass of the main speakers but again given their physical limitations will not produce deep bass.

Adding an amplifier to power components will give the components more power and that usually results in inproved bass definition. The components might not produce MORE bass but they should produce better-defined bass.
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Old 4th September 2021, 01:37   #14222
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Hi,

I need advice from Audio Gurus here.

I have booked an XL6 and planning an audio upgrade along with damping in doors.

I am not an audiophile and like my music clear and tight, not a bass head either. I listen to a wide range of songs from Carnatic to fusion to pop to rock. Not a fan of heavy metal, etc.

I go on long drives fairly regularly and like music when driving.

The stock HU in the car feels good enough to me. The stock audio quality though was too sharp and boomy.

My budget is about 30k and can stretch it by 20k if it means a significantly better sound quality (don't need high volume at all).

I definitely want speaker replacement + Damping and not sure about adding an 4 channel amp. Does amplifier make a significant impact on sound quality?

I have the following as a reference set up
JBL GTO 609C components
JBL GTO 629 coaxials
JBL Stage A9004 amp
STP GB Damping sheets

The above set up without the amp was done by DBhpian Procrj and he is satisfied with the sound quality. This costed him under 30k including installation.

The audio guy I contacted (Suresh - The Bass Club - Bangalore, recommended by Procrj) said adding an amp will need adding a hi-low converter and the total cost of the above set up including wiring and installation will be 54k.

Suresh also suggested the following set up and said it will be far superior, cost is 69k.
JBL Stadium GTO 600C
JBL Stadium GTO 620
JBL Club 704 amp
STP GB Damping sheets


I would love to hear feedback about the above setups and if the quoted price is ok, I can of course bargain a few thousands off the quote as it is an initial one.

Are there any other suggested set-ups for 30 to 50k cost that give better performance?

Is it a must to add the hi-low converter when adding amp to OE HU?

Is there some other way like adding a DSP or changing HU that can give me similar/better performance in similar budget?

Thanks a ton in advance.

Regards,
Praveen
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Old 9th September 2021, 10:29   #14223
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Default Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!

Hi Audio Gurus,

I'd like to have your advice regarding certain discrepancies that I have in my setup.

Below are the details of the setups:

Hyundai Creta S model Stock Setup


Below diagram depicts my best understanding of the stock factory fitted setup:
Attachment 2204671
Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!-hyundai_stock_7_inch_stereo_setup.png
The stock setup was just fine but lacked the following key items:
  • No bass at all
  • distorted treble on higher volumes while highway cruising
  • very average vocals
  • rear speakers having lower volume

First Custom Install


In order to improve upon the stock setup and have better sound and acoustics, following key components were installed:
  • DB Drive Euphoria ES3 6C Components 75W RMS 175W Peak at 4 ohm * 2 : Link
  • DB Drive Euphoria ES3 60 Coaxials 50W RMS 150W Peak at 4 ohm * 2 : Link
  • RockFord Fosgate R1 SVC Subwoofer in sealed enclosure - 200W RMS 400W Peak : Link
  • Kenwood kac-ps704ex amplifier powering all db drive speakers 70W * 4 RMS : Link
  • Generic GVAA 2 channel amplifier driving subwoofer in bridged mode at 4 ohm(RMS unknown)
  • JBL LOC4 Hi/Low Converter - 4 channels : Link
  • 3 RCA cables, one connected from LOC to Kenwood directly, one connected from LOC to 2 channel subwoofer amplifier and one connecting from 2 channel amp preouts to Kenwood amplifier
  • Doual Layer door damping using CTK Standard damping sheets

Below diagram gives a better picture of the same:
Attachment 2204672
Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!-first_custom_install.png
Post installing the setup, there was a lot of sound quality improvement over the stock setup. Highs were quite clear, bass was there(though not very clear) and mids were above average. I asked the installed how the mids could be improved and he suggested the expensive DSP route and also said that the stock stereo has it's own limitations. Running out of cash and having a good improvement over the stock setup, I left the place and happily enjoyed the same for about 3 months.

Until this point, I was illiterate with respect to audio setups and did not know much about ICE installs. Slowly and steadily, I came to know about channels, impedance, RMS, wire gauge and other audio terminologies and found the following key problems with the current setup:
  • The problem of whine noise when accelerating : Discussed here (RCA cables and Alternator whine :()
  • Kenwood amplifier having 2 channels running directly off LOC and other 2 from generic 2 channel amp, hence 2 channels have shorter wiring and other 2 channels have a RCA cabling that is twice as long as first one with an amp connction in between. Could a Y cable have been a better option ?
  • I couldn't solve the mystery of Kenwood amplifier speaker output wiring but on adjusting the gains, came to know that 2 channels are driving the front mid range while the other 2 are driving both tweeters and rear coaxials. Don't know how the crossover is functioning in this case.
  • No matter how I adjusted gains, the vocals remained below average. They would either become lower than rest of the instruments or become too bright if gains are increased
  • External road and tyre noise was heard quite clearly despite music running(doors are already damped with CTK standard double layer damping)
  • Rattling was heard in boot door in bass boost is increased


In order to solve the above issues, visited a small nearby installer shop, he adjusted everything but the damn mids refused to sound better. He also derived at the conclusion that the only solution was to either replace stock stereo or add a DSP and damp the floor, wheel wells and boot for better insulation. 2 weeks ago, I made up my mind to get the full car damping done until I ran into another installer.

Revised Custom Install


Upon explaining the issues to a new installer and asking him for full car damping, he simply pointed out that isolating external noise is not the major remedy here. He also gave following contradicting statements:
  • Stock stereo packs more than enough power and a DSP is not needed
  • Stock speakers are not as bad as they run on stock stereo directly. He said that first installer should have at least ran them on amplifier before going with complete aftermarket setup of db drives
  • Both amplifiers are low power and cannot drive the db drives and subwoofer properly. He mentioned that Kenwood KAC-PS704EX is a filtered amplifier and is not suitable for the setup. I partially agreed with his as db Drive Components have minimum RMS rating of 75W whereas Kenwood is rated at 70W RMS(all values at 4 ohm)
  • He was furious over the wastage of resources and money that could have been better utilised

Anyways, he brought S&B 4 channel amplifier and said this alone can drive everything and in a much better manner. Initially, I denied installing this amplifier as it is not branded and how do we know how much RMS rating it has but on his insistence I gave him a chance to provide demo using the same.

And voila, 15 minutes of install time and tuning and the mids sounded as if artist is singing along with us, db drives were running as if they've got a new lease of life and that small Rockford Fosgate subwoofer was punching new bass clarity levels.

I purchased the amplifier and happily lived till evening that day. In the evening, my better half heard the new setup and quickly observed that sound is coming more from right hand side. And yes, it was true that RHS was sounding more than LHS in terms of volume and detail. I investigated myself and came to know that only FL and RR channels are being utilised to drive all speakers while FR and RL are discarded as shown in diagram below.

S&B 4 channel Amplifier details: I could find out only the following one video/link on the entire internet that explains this amplifier:


Following diagram depicts the revised install as per my understanding:
Attachment 2204673
Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!-revised_custom_install.png

Proposed Solutions


I've though upon some solutions and enhancements that could be utilised to improve upon the setup further:
  1. Keep using only 2 input channels as it sounds fine with 2 channels, however change the channels to use FL and FR signal instead of FR and RL that is currently being used.
    Proposed diagram:
    Attachment 2204674
    Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!-proposed_custom_install_1.png

    However, following are the unknown variables in this install proposal:
    - Will discarding RL and RR signals lead to loss of any significant detail in the music? Please note than these 2 rear channels are anyways having lower volume than front channels.
    - One channel RCA cable length will still be longer(2 times longer) than the other channel. Will this have impact on the sound ? Alternatively, I can ask the installer to take out the stereo and change the RCA cabling on JBL LOC4, switching the correct one RCA cable to FL port instead of RL port that it is currently connected to. This way FL anf FR will be connecting directly to amplifier and RL and RR will be discarded.

  2. As an alternative install, S&B amplifier can be made to run all 4 channels as FL, FR, RL, RR and speakers could be connected individually to 4 channels. However, I'm wary of the fact that real coaxials having 50W RMS and amplifier having 100W RMS at 4 ohm could melt/blow them. Is using 2x RMS power fine for them ? Also, in this case, I'd like to utilise Kenwood KAC-PS704EX to drive subwoofer in bridged mode as it has 200W RMS *2 at 4 ohms capacity as per its specifications which is equivalent to the subwoofer's need.

Slightly off-topic, but I do have the following doubts in mind as well:
  • Latest installer mentioned using 2nd LOC for better output. Is this really required of am I missing something here? I'm lost as to why it is said to be required.
  • Will running the speakers in parallel wiring have any negative impact on them in the long term ? Please note that since it is parallel wiring of speakers running on 4 ohms, the load is now 2 ohms on 2 channels driving the speakers. Subwoofer is still running on 4 ohm(sub's default load) though via bridged mode.

Last edited by sarav100 : 9th September 2021 at 10:48. Reason: Attachments not visible
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Old 12th September 2021, 08:52   #14224
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Been in this boat. You got the right solution. Just switch wiring to FL and FR. Move front components and tweeters to this amp. Use rear speakers and subwoofer on the other 4 channel amp.

To be honest 70 watt amp to drive 75 watt speakers isn't that bad. Anyway, that's controversial amd debatable so don't want to get in that.

All audio is recorded in 2 channel stereo mode so no there won't be any loss of detail. Only issue you will face is the experience or rear passengers may not be same but if you hook up rear speakers to the other amp as well then they too will match the loudness.

Last edited by #ish : 12th September 2021 at 08:54. Reason: Adding more stuff.
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Old 21st September 2021, 07:50   #14225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #ish View Post
Been in this boat. You got the right solution. Just switch wiring to FL and FR. Move front components and tweeters to this amp. Use rear speakers and subwoofer on the other 4 channel amp.

To be honest 70 watt amp to drive 75 watt speakers isn't that bad. Anyway, that's controversial amd debatable so don't want to get in that.

All audio is recorded in 2 channel stereo mode so no there won't be any loss of detail. Only issue you will face is the experience or rear passengers may not be same but if you hook up rear speakers to the other amp as well then they too will match the loudness.
Hi #ish,

Thanks for the advice.
Yes, Now only FL and FR are being used and RR,RL are discarded as they had muddy signal anyway. Everything(components+coaxials+subwoofer) is running on single S&B 4-channel amp now.

With regards to 70 watts amp to drive 75watt RMS components, it is debatable and the point is best left ignored since I could hear real lack of mids in sound with that amp even though it was a difference of merely 5 watts.

With regards to rear passengers listening experience, the car is 90% driven as 2 seater, so rear passenger listening experience is not priority. Only front stage should sound perfect.

While the rest of the points are sorted, I'd like to draw attention to the sub woofer bass output which has a strange connection issue. This time, I went to installer to get the 'Proposed Custom Install 1' wiring setup and he had connected both FL and FR channels to speakers(FL and FR) and sub woofer(both input channels) via Y cable just like in the proposed connection shown the previous post. When he demoed the system, I was not having the best of hearing due to repeated playback of songs at high volume for adjustments and felt like everything is sorted. About 10 KM away from there, sub woofer box jumped in the boot due to a pothole and one of the wires got disconnected. Continued the journey without any bass for the next 30 KM till I reached home. On reaching home, I connected the disconnected sub woofer box wire and noticed the cone excursion to be significantly limited. The bass was playing with limited depth no matter how deep it is in the music.

Started debugging the issue and noticed that bass gets limited if both both FL and FR channels are connected to it's input channels - Channel 1 and Channel 2. However, if one of the input channel is disconnected, the bass returns to its full potential and becomes deep with single input channel.

I'm confused as to why is this happening as I always thought bass needed both the input channels to operate. This is hypothesis but is this something related to phase cancellation wherein the FL and FR signals cancel each other ? If it is indeed phase cancellation, then how was it operating fine earlier when FL and RR channel inputs were fed to it.

For now, I've left one input channel disconnected from sub woofer input and the below diagrams best represent the setup.

Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!-updated_wiring_with_no_channel_1_input.jpg
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Old 21st September 2021, 09:38   #14226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarav100 View Post
below diagrams best represent the setup.
How is the output and your experience?

We had a similar setup in one of the car and the output was horrible due to lack of fader option. Rear Coax sounded too bright and spoiled the fun. Finally we ended up driving the rear coax directly by HU and the setup was far better.
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Old 21st September 2021, 15:11   #14227
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Hi,
Have searched all over with no results.
Is there a modern head unit with physical knobs & reverse camera input?

I loved the ones in Skoda rapid. Is there a similar unit that can be fixed in corolla altis?

Needs:
Good quality Bluetooth calling
Reverse camera
Steering buttons compatibility

Wants:
Google maps
Dashcam integration

Please suggest

Last edited by vikramvicky1984 : 21st September 2021 at 15:15.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 11:40   #14228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spals View Post
Hi,

Are there any other suggested set-ups for 30 to 50k cost that give better performance?

Regards,
Praveen
Hi Praveen,

Were you able to finalize on any of the above mentioned options and if yes, which one you choose. I am similar boat to upgrade the ICE for my 2016 2.8Z crysta and planning to upgrade the speakers now and later to upgrade the HU.

Also as one of the member suggested, did call the Bangalore dealer (Concept 12V) for focal speakers and below is cost quoted for auditor series

6.5" component - ~11K
6.5" coaxial - ~7K
4 channel amp- ~16K (Required for these speakers as quoted by dealer)
Sound proof and cables will be additional.
These are quoted MRP and he told he will provide some discount once I finalize

So wanted to check with forum members what are the other best options in speakers for the budget around ~30K.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 14:32   #14229
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Navin / audio experts:

Speaking of the volume of a sealed box for a sub - Navin had mentioned earlier that the volume mentioned by the manufacturer should be the net volume. But just now happened to look at this - for the Infinity Reference 1200S.

Name:  1200S.png
Views: 392
Size:  33.6 KB

Does this mean that 0.75 cu ft is gross volume ? The image says V (box) / Includes driver displacement
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Old 22nd September 2021, 15:53   #14230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post

Does this mean that 0.75 cu ft is gross volume ? The image says V (box) / Includes driver displacement
Manufacturers usually take the driver displacement into account while mentioning the recommended dimensions of the enclosure.

Below is from JL Sub Owners manual -

Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!-sub-dimensions.jpg
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Old 22nd September 2021, 17:18   #14231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prashantuchil View Post
Manufacturers usually take the driver displacement into account while mentioning the recommended dimensions of the enclosure.
Cool. and thanks.

THough I think JL's details above can be a bit confusing. It gives net volume, and then gives enclosure size using gross volume. In the above, they have not mentioned thickness of the walls either.

So I now have a box that's a little bigger. From what I have read, volume affects the output - so will give the current new box a shot, pay around a bit by using padding to reduce the available volume - and then seal it. A slightly reduced size if that will sound better.

Last edited by condor : 22nd September 2021 at 17:22.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 19:00   #14232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
Cool. and thanks.

THough I think JL's details above can be a bit confusing. It gives net volume, and then gives enclosure size using gross volume. In the above, they have not mentioned thickness of the walls either.
Sorry, I did not include the full manual. They do indicate the thickness (19mm is the standard I have seen across the board). See below -

Name:  Sub Dimensions 1.jpg
Views: 379
Size:  43.4 KB

Including the full manual
12W3v3_Manual.pdf
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Old 25th September 2021, 10:11   #14233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGK View Post
Hi Praveen,

Were you able to finalize on any of the above mentioned options and if yes, which one you choose. I am similar boat to upgrade the ICE for my 2016 2.8Z crysta and planning to upgrade the speakers now and later to upgrade the HU.

Hi SGK,

I could not decide anything, unable to decide so just judging the stock audio for now. Seems much better than my old car (TATA Manza).
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Old 26th September 2021, 22:55   #14234
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Update on the new sub-woofer box: Step 2 completed today.

I had got a new box made for the subwoofer, and today I connected it to check how it would sound. And needless to say, the sub has begun to thump. Not SPL thump, but making-its-presence-felt-thump.

Subwoofer model: Infinity Reference 1200S (250W RMS) driven by a 5 channel Class-D amp.

Size (external): 14" x 17.5" x 7.8"
Total Internal Volume: 0.81 cu ft.
Recommended volume for sealed box: 0.75 cu ft.

Box is made up of 12mm plywood for the longer sides + top & bottom panels. The shorter sides are 19mm ply, so that it takes the screws of the bottom panel securely.

Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!-subbox1.jpg

The sub, fixed to the underside of the top panel.

Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!-img_4573.jpg

The dimensions were chosen such that the box must not be wider than the jump seat, and also must fit in between the jump-seat and the back of the middle-row. And it just worked out neatly.

Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!-img_4575.jpg\

Need to do the finishing, but will listen to it a bit now. The box has the sides and the mounting side fixed well by the carpenter. The bottom panel has screws to close the box. The box does leak a bit right now between the main part and the bottom panel.



For reference, the old box: 19mm plywood top mount.
External size: 14" x 14" x 5.75"
Total Internal volume: 0.36 cu ft.

Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!-img_4576.jpg

Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!-img_4577.jpg

I get a bit of bass from the mid-ranges, as much as it should. I had not thought much about it till recently when it just came up for me that I need to re-look this. And glad I did it.
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Old 26th September 2021, 23:56   #14235
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Need Help

Used the search function on the forum and was not able to find the answer.

I have a Tiago 2016 version and want to upgrade the Harman HU to the Sony AX-5000. I'm very happy with the current sound output of the Harman.

Will the change in the HU result in better sound output from the existing setup?
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