[buzzy_boy]

Originally Posted by grimmreaper_gtr

Seems like you're comparing it with the wrong cars.

To be fair, I test drove the Safari and Tucson back to back. Honestly, I find the Tucson to be extremely competent, but I find it too bland to be desirable.

Would I be making a sensible choice paying roughly 10% more for the Tucson (compared to the gold variant for Safari)? Maybe. Would I find owing a Tucson something to write home about? Maybe not. Classic head vs heart decision.

[TROOPER]

Originally Posted by buzzy_boy

To be fair, I back to backed the Safari with the Tucson.

You should have mentioned it then. Cause I don’t think most people would believe it even for a second that the Safari has worse build than an S-Cross and bad interiors than the gen 1 Creta.

Classic head vs heart decision.

Tata cars are bought as a heart decision hands down. Once you park a Tata car, and walk ahead a couple of metres, you will definitely look behind for a view of the ride. Either because it looks damn fine and you had a fun ride (or because you’re pissed off at it and TASS because of a niggle which they can’t solve). But look back you will.

If I had walked in to a Tata showroom telling a sales advisor that I’m buying the Hexa expecting to do 1.5 lac kms (hell, mine couldn’t make it to 1.5k kms) in 5 years with no breakdowns, everyone from the sales advisor to the guys on the factory floor to the people in the boardroom would have laughed out loud at me.

Most “heart” cars around the globe are problematic. One can buy a Tata to smile while driving or a Toyota to smile while selling.

Coming to the Tucson, I would rather wait for the new one which is due. The current one definitely isn’t worth picking over the Safari.

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by buzzy_boy

To be fair, I back to backed the Safari with the Tucson. Honestly, I find the Tucson to be extremely competent - but I find it too bland to be desirable.

Even so, I find your assessment of the Safari a bit disingenuous. The bonnet and/or boot of the Safari being lighter than a Tucson? That is simply not true. Anyone who has experience with both the cars can attest to the fact. The plastic quality (not taking about the fit) on the Tucson may be better by 20% at the most but placing the Safari below the 1st gen Creta (which has interiors rivalling the 1st gen Amaze) is another claim too hard to swallow.

I certainly recognise the reality that experiences are subjective and hence differ from individual to individual. But the above-mentioned points(weight/heft etc.) are objective facts. Hence, you may understand why many members find your claims off-putting.

[PowerSpike]

Originally Posted by Jude300

And on pricing, almost all 7-seater variants of other brands are priced in the same pricing bracket and the Innova Crysta has a whooping 3L premium and people still buy. Also, in the last few years price of automobiles have spiked in general but thats an industry issue which will need a broader discussion. Singling out the Harrier twins is not justified.

The Innova is a much more reliable product than Safari. Also it drives very different than the Safari. The Hexa was the only product that could have given it a run for its money. It made zero sense to kill such a beautiful product except if Tata knew something that we don't. Maybe it was their product that didn't make money? I don't see any other reason to stop Hexa to release Harrier and Safari as they are very different products. Perhaps Tata knew the Hexa would not be as reliable as the Toyota Innova and the warranty claim costs would eat up in their bottomline.

Originally Posted by Jude300

To your point on mix and match of parts, if not the Fiat sourced engine and the Hyundai sourced gearbox, I wouldn't be owning a Safari today. It gives me more peace of mind as they are proven components. The mating of the engine and the gearbox is awesome and I can vouch for it as an owner. And all of the integration has been executed excellently in the Harrier twins. Moreover, sharing of parts across products is now a trend across all manufaturers to cut costs. Comparing with the old gen products like the erstwhile Safari and the Hexa, the Harrier twnis are superior products with much more practical feature list.

The fact that people buy a Tata product because the 2 main components of a vehicle are NOT manufactured by Tata is something for them to ponder over deeply. It's a shame that they cannot produce a reliable engine even after so many years as a manufacturer. They are now going to produce defense equipment

If the engine and power train of their vehicles are borrowed from others, what else is there to manufacture? Are they competing with the likes of assemblers like Dilip Chabbaria or with a full blown vehicle manufacturers like Hyundai, Toyota, Maruti and Mahindra?

Seems like, even after all these years, Tata is still many miles away from giving a full-fledged indigenous product that is also reliable. Right now, Mahindra seems to be the only homegrown Indian brand that can offer a reliable vehicle.

[pjbiju]

It would be great if you could be more specific in your feedback since that will help the readers better. If we look at your requirements, it seems all of them have been met and yet you are terribly disappointed. Just highlighting a few points that if you can elaborate, will be more useful.

Originally Posted by buzzy_boy

Took a test drive of the Safari automatic today. Came away terribly disappointed. My observations below:
...
Safari observations
...
Interior

1. IMHO the second weakest link
   ...
2. Rough edges with some trim not fitted properly

Any specific examples that you noticed? Are they trims that the user would often interact with? Are they at highly visible areas? Do they hamper working of something inside the vehicle?

1. ...
2. Hard plastics everywhere
3. Switches especially flimsy feeling
   ...

Which switches? Do you feel they could easily break or fail? Why did you feel so?

Driving

1. ...
2. Terrible steering, not at all well calibrated
3. Bongs and beeps for random things.
   ...
4. Brakes creak at crawling speeds - uneven pad wear?

What was the issue with the steering? What do you mean by not calibrated well? Was it too heavy, requiring more effort? Was it too sensitive, making a vehicle direction change even at the slightest input? At what speeds did you notice these issues?

What was the brake noise? Pads rubbing against the disc or something else? Was the noise not there while braking at higher speeds?

Build quality

1. The weakest link
2. Atrocious
3. Back door has the same heft as S-cross's rear door
4. Boot door is a tin can
5. Front door, again - no heft
6. Boot lid is okay
7. Materials in cabin may not last beyond 1.5 L kms
8. Terrible under the bonnet. No working room, components seem to be thrown together without any effort at layout design - no wonder we hear stories of improperly laid wires and hoses causing problems
9. As others have noted, Tata seems to have a high degree of tolerance; eg: multiple washers used to hold the plastic DRL trim in place.

When you say atrocious build quality what exactly are you referring to? The basic structure of the vehicle or the interior parts? Is the sheet metal/steel used for the body not strong enough? Are the welds/joints between panels not having good strength or is not proper?

By "heft" you are referring to the weight of the door. How did you actually feel or measure the weight of the door when the weight is on the hinges? By the force needed to move the door on the hinges or by the sound of the door shutting? Is the rear door of the S-Cross very light? Asking this since you made the comparison to the S-cross doors.

Again how did you find that the boot door is a tin can? By feeling the weight or by flexing the boot door panels?

1.5 lakh kilometers would roughly be 10 years of usage for most people. I do not know how one can judge if something will last that long or fail by just looking at something. A big part of how long something will last depends on the conditions of usage (roads, load carried and driving characteristics like speed, acceleration, braking etc.). Of course if there are a lot of examples of most of Tata cars falling apart within a certain period or by a certain number of kilometers, we can assume, that it could be true of this car as well unless proved otherwise.

I really cannot comment about the engine bay unless I take a closer look or try to access some component with the proper tools.

I definitely agree about the multiple washers used for the DRL reported in this thread. That is totally not acceptable.

Other points

1. Infotainment average, not good not terribly bad
2. Sound quality above average
3. Thumbs up for the LED cabin lamps
4. Thumbs down for low profile R18 tyres

Conclusion
The Safari is a product with great potential, but it is let down terribly by poor execution. I wonder whether TaMo spent any effort at all to get the execution right.

My hypothesis: TaMo had to make money really fast to offset years of underperformance. They can't do that with hatchbacks, sedans and compact SUVs with cut-throat competition and razor thin margins. Can't do that against executive SUVs with the Fortuner around Adding to the pressure, they had to build new platforms to meet the new safety norms and emission regulations. So, their idea was to build a desirable mid-size SUV and maximize profits by using cheap materials, and low cost manufacturing.

At the end of the day, it is sad too see so much potential wasted by poor engineering and execution. I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot stick.

I am not trying to question your observations. But providing more specifics and examples will help everyone. Saying something is "nice" or "bad" does not convey anything really useful to the reader unless you are able to also tell why something was "nice" or "bad".

[pseudo_coder]

Originally Posted by ram87pune

... Tata has to pay for 72000 engines annually come what may. So if we consider an average monthly sale of 3500 units for the Harrier twins combined then FCA is simply milking Tata for 30000 engines per annum without actually providing any engines. This deal is for 10 years so Tata has to somehow come out with more products on the Omega platform so as to stop this milking....

What were Tata thinking while signing such a deal? Hexa used to sell a few hundred units every month. And they had the confidence to sell 10-20 times more with Harrier and Safari? 3-4k per month sales are still very good. What if the Harrier had flopped like Hexa?

Also, with such a deal in place, it makes a lot of sense for Tata to reduce prices of Harrier twins, so that they are able to utilize the full quota of 6000 engines every month. But as things stand, they are hardly any discounts, be it Diwali or Pitrupaksh or year end.

[ram87pune]

Originally Posted by pseudo_coder

What were Tata thinking while signing such a deal? Hexa used to sell a few hundred units every month. And they had the confidence to sell 10-20 times more with Harrier and Safari? 3-4k per month sales are still very good. What if the Harrier had flopped like Hexa?

Also, with such a deal in place, it makes a lot of sense for Tata to reduce prices of Harrier twins, so that they are able to utilize the full quota of 6000 engines every month. But as things stand, they are hardly any discounts, be it Diwali or Pitrupaksh or year end.

Dear pseudo_coder,

You are absolutely right in thinking how on earth did Tata make such a deal with the devil(FCA) who is known for its arm twisting tactics. Well the short answer is since the Harrier twins use a transverse engine and Fiat's 2.0 Multijet being readily available, Tata did not go to the pains of adding a transaxle to the 2.2 Varicor engine from the Hexa and making it suitable for FWD duty. They wanted to keep selling the Hexa at a lower price point than the Harrier twins with less features something similar to what Mahindra does with the XUV and the Scorpio. But due to Covid they had to stop selling the Hexa and were left with only the Harrier twins as SUVs in their portfolio. Heck even with a paltry sales of 500 units the Hexa made them more money than selling 1000 units of the Harrier.

Now coming to the 2nd question regarding Tata's confidence about being able to sell 72k Harrier twins each year then let me tell you that Fiat makes around 1 lakh units of the 2.0 Multijet each year and after taking away Tata's share they are left with 28000 engines. They knew that they won't be able to sell 28000 Compass SUVs per annum and thus made another deal with MG who got a small share of these 28000 engines for a far lesser price than Tata. That's also one of the reasons why MG sells more petrol Hectors than diesel and are able to price the diesel variants of the Hector so competitively.

Tata started the development of the Omega platform in late 2016 and when Pratap came up with production ready design prototypes of the Harrier, it looked so stunning that Tata felt pretty confident about being able to utilize those 72k engines annually as they always had the plans to have a 7 seater derivative of the Harrier as well as an MPV and an SUV Coupe. So it's fair to assume that all these 4 vehicles combined would have made it possible for Tata to fully utilize the quota of 72k engines per annum. But the launch of the Korean twins, Hector and now the XUV700 plus the pandemic have put a spanner in Tata's forward march and they are struggling to launch new products on the Omega platform. Also the safety score will always remain compromised with the use of 2.0 Multijet in RHD configuration.

So forget about any discounts on the Harrier twins as the whole LR(heavily diluted) platform plus the crazy deal with FCA and Hyundai's gearbox has made it impossible for Tata to offer any discounts and all they are going to do is keep on adding little little features every 6 months or so and keep the twins up to date. And ofcourse pray to God that GNCAP does not test their twin SUVs and spoil the entire show.

[condor]

Considering this arrangement with FCA, it may make sense for Tata to bring in a BS6 version of the Hexa. It will need work, though. But will they ?

[avinash_m]

Originally Posted by ram87pune

Tata did not go to the pains of adding a transaxle to the 2.2 Varicor engine from the Hexa and making it suitable for FWD duty.

So hard to digest this, Tata made this choice! Please dont get me wrong, I don't mean to spawn another debate on the autheticity of this claim but I am genuinely surprised that Tata chose this route inspite of having considerable experience in this department, and the fact that the 2.2 is a proven powerunit.
Is the transaxle adaptation/modification so complex, that even Tata, with their might and resources, chose to spend money, instead of using (and possibly saving) it for suitably modifying the 2.2 for the harrier twins?!
Just curious, have there been examples (india or world), of such engine adaptations executed by car companies?!

Edit: Just recalled Maruti did it with the 1298 cc petrol mill, by adapting it for the Gypsy (from the Esteem). But then, this was a transverse to longitudnal conversion; is that easier than converting it the other way?!

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by ram87pune

Well the short answer is since the Harrier twins use a transverse engine and Fiat's 2.0 Multijet being readily available, Tata did not go to the pains of adding a transaxle to the 2.2 Varicor engine from the Hexa and making it suitable for FWD duty.

Pretty stupid of Tata IMHO. Mahindra could very well place the 2.2l longitudinal or transversely.

Dunno if it is easier to do, but the Winger has the 2.2l engine in a longitudinal manner, with the power going to the front wheels.

Originally Posted by condor

Considering this arrangement with FCA, it may make sense for Tata to bring in a BS6 version of the Hexa. It will need work, though. But will they ?

Not with their two platform strategy, and the present sales figures which are encouraging.

If they bring back the X2 platform, it would be cool. A Sierra to rival Jimny and another to rival the next gen Scorpio. Maybe add a worthy rival to the Innova too. The Xenon had scored 4 stars in the ANCAP in 2015. Tata can definitely update the platform to the latest crash test protocols. But not going to happen. Tata is praying fervently that everything goes BEV ASAP and they won't have to deal with ICE.

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by avinash_m

Just curious, have there been examples (india or world), of such engine adaptations executed by car companies?!

I don't think it is that complex. Mahindra uses its mHawk engine in both FWD and RWD layouts. XUV500, 700, Scorpio, Thar all use the same engine in various configurations.

There was also a thread about whether mHawk and Dicor are the same engines.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...2-2-vtt-3.html (Is the mHawk140 = 2.2 FMTECH 4 = DiCOR 2.2 VTT)

I think the conclusion was that they are cousins.

Originally Posted by condor

Considering this arrangement with FCA, it may make sense for Tata to bring in a BS6 version of the Hexa. It will need work, though. But will they ?

I think that boat has sailed. Now the only solution is to somehow convince FCA to make changes so that it passes the crash test. FCA sells 1 lakh engines in India annually as per the above post. So they have to take responsibility for this. I know the contract is signed, but there is a bit of an ethical problem in this now. That's the safety of about 1 lakh drivers at stake per year, because of this issue. I think some hue and cry in social media about the crash rating of all the three cars will make them change it. The current status is severely damaging for Tata, MG, and Fiat the same way.

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by padmrajravi

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...2-2-vtt-3.html (Is the mHawk140 = 2.2 FMTECH 4 = DiCOR 2.2 VTT)

I think the conclusion was that they are cousins.

Both the engines, the M-Hawk by M&M and Dicor by TML were in collaboration with AVL, Austria.

Confirmation from M&M (link)

The 103 KW, 2.2 Litre common rail intercooled turbo diesel engine produces a peak torque of 320 Nm. With a robust design in collaboration with AVL Austria and backed by Bosch Engine Management system

[condor]

Originally Posted by DicKy

Tata is praying fervently that everything goes BEV ASAP and they won't have to deal with ICE.

That still will not cut ice with FCA and the minimum purchase contract that Tata has got itself into.

Originally Posted by padmrajravi

Now the only solution is to somehow convince FCA to make changes so that it passes the crash test.

Or modify the contract to split the numbers with a smaller engine that Tata can use in their other models. May be the petrols ? And Tata uses the time till the contract runs out, to develop their own new, better engines. The 1.5 diesel in the Nexon not to be touched.

[HammerHead]

Originally Posted by ram87pune

Also the safety score will always remain compromised with the use of 2.0 Multijet in RHD configuration.

I have a keen interest in Tata Safari. It fits to my 'original' requirement of a 7 seater SUV as a replacement to my aged but in excellent condition Grande Punto. I'm not in a hurry and off late also started looking at entry level premium sedans/SUV's which could accommodate 5 average size adults comfortably.
I'm ok to patiently wait for a year or two to see how 'version 2' of Tata Safari pans out before putting down my money.

Coming to your posts and 'insider' info, I feel that Tata does not have confidence on crash worthiness of the twins. And that's a fact till they put the twins through GNCAP just like they did with other cars.

The above 'quoted' statement makes me a bit confused as you narrowed down the 'safety' problem to the inherent design issue with Fiat's 2.0 Multijet engine.
Keeping that in mind, I wonder how Jeep Compass was able to score full 5 star at EuroNCAP!!

By the way THANKS for sharing the valuable 'insider' info

[Jude300]

V18 software update: Wireless Android Auto / Car Play now available on my Safari

I got the software upated to V18 and this now has added the much needed wireless android auto feature on my car. While this comes as standard for the new Safari XZ variant owners, it was not available on the ones until a little while back. This comes as a great update and hats off to Tata Motors for listening to the customer feedback.

Please note that it is device dependant i.e. your mobile should support Wireless Android Auto. To my underdstanding all devices with Android 11 should work seamlessly.