[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by aniketi

April fool to all customers

Actually Toyota is fooling it's customers over years now. They are so costly that sometimes people feel if they use gold in their cars. Innova and Fortuner are way too costly now and doesn't justify their price.

How costly is Innova? Just see this - In price of one Innova Crysta top end, one can actually buy 2 Ertiga top end and still save some money for petrol and maintenance bills. Isn't it crazy?

You can get 2 Eeco at the price of 1 Ertiga too and 2 Superbs at the price of 1 E class too. No point in comparing cars from different segments. Has Toyota got expensive, yes it has but then so have others. Octavia when launched will come at 30L OTR. Interms of features for price, Toyota falls short, but pricing has been comparable to peers.

[aniketi]

Originally Posted by PrideRed

You can get 2 Eeco at the price of 1 Ertiga too and 2 Superbs at the price of 1 E class too. No point in comparing cars from different segments. Has Toyota got expensive, yes it has but then so have others. Octavia when launched will come at 30L OTR. Interms of features for price, Toyota falls short, but pricing has been comparable to peers.

Eeco and Ertiga are from 2 different category all together. But what Ertiga and Innova offers is more or less same. Ertiga offers 90% of what Innova offers in less than 50% price, hope you agree. We have one nice thread also on the same topic in T-BHP I guess. I have driven both vehicles and in some areas Ertiga is actually better than Innova.

[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by aniketi

Eeco and Ertiga are from 2 different category all together. But what Ertiga and Innova offers is more or less same. Ertiga offers 90% of what Innova offers in less than 50% price, hope you agree. We have one nice thread also on the same topic in T-BHP I guess. I have driven both vehicles and in some areas Ertiga is actually better than Innova.

90% of what Innova does may be true if you are driving solo or 2-3 folks. But then even a hatch back would excel in these conditions, why do you need Ertiga if this is your primary usage. Load the vehicles with 5-6 people or more +luggage(which these cars are used for) and let me know if Ertiga is 90% of Innova. Engine, AT, safety kit wise too Ertiga is far behind. Despite shortcomings Ertiga sells as people see value in its offering. Look at new yellow boards, most Innova have been replaced by Ertiga in city limits. For outstation Innova is the preferred one, primarily because Ertiga falls short w.r.to power, load carrying capacity. However there is no point in comparing Ertiga prices to Innova which are from different segments. If you compare to D1 segment sedans, which is where Innova competed since day 1, the price is consistent or may be 2L costlier, a premium it commands because of the success.

[Technic90]

Originally Posted by aniketi

April fool to all customers

Actually Toyota is fooling it's customers over years now. They are so costly that sometimes people feel if they use gold in their cars. Innova and Fortuner are way too costly now and doesn't justify their price.

How costly is Innova? Just see this - In price of one Innova Crysta top end, one can actually buy 2 Ertiga top end and still save some money for petrol and maintenance bills. Isn't it crazy?

So, all Toyota owners are gullible fools? Then who according to you are the smart owners?

Fooling would be if Toyota promises to provide a certain experience at that price but doesn't do. When you walk into a Toyota dealership you wouldn't hear any salesman bragging/lying about any amazing features (mostly because there aren't any), but they only have one thing to say - This will run forever. If tomorrow my Toyota breaks down or causes frequent problems, then yes Toyota fooled me nicely. Looking at statistics very few people have been fooled in that way. Toyota owners are the ones who value 'peace of mind' over sunroof since sunroof and fancy features prone to niggles seem to be the benchmark for VFM for many people.

I do agree Toyota's are costly and overpriced but I didn't understand your comparison with Ertiga. Just because both are 7/8 seaters, doesn't mean they are in the same category. Ertiga doesn't provide you with 150PS and 360Nm torque, similar space, safety and build quality. And the drive experience is not even comparable. But I do admire Maruti's fuss-free ownership. You can always do how many Nanos, Altos, Eecos, and Kwids you can buy at the price of 1 Ertiga but that doesn't prove any point. By the way, you can buy 2 Innova Crysta base models at the price of 1 Fortuner but people with that budget won't be doing that nor does it make sense because those 2 cars don't serve the same needs of a typical buyer.

Regarding pricing, cars in the same segment are priced similar with Toyota having 10-20% premium and the hope is that money is recovered during resale and with low maintenance and repair costs compared to other brands. The fact that Toyota managed to sell 6000 units of Crysta while Tata managed half of it with Harrier + Safari combined gives an idea of how the market values the products.

[shri]

Pricelist of Hyundai cars as on 30th March 2021

[sid_deb]

Originally Posted by aniketi

Eeco and Ertiga are from 2 different category all together. But what Ertiga and Innova offers is more or less same. Ertiga offers 90% of what Innova offers in less than 50% price, hope you agree. We have one nice thread also on the same topic in T-BHP I guess. I have driven both vehicles and in some areas Ertiga is actually better than Innova.

Are you suggesting Maruti has got the pricing all wrong? Selling a car with 90% of what the competitor offers, even doing better in certain areas at 50% of the price? While there are no discounts on the Ertiga, MSIL does seem to go aggressive on its pricing and hence runs a discount shop all 12 months even on its hot selling products like Swift, Alto

Eeco may not be comparable to Ertiga but the Triber surely is then, correct? Maybe Renault can also increase their prices by 2-3X

[aniketi]

Originally Posted by PrideRed

90% of what Innova does may be true if you are driving solo or 2-3 folks. But then even a hatch back would excel in these conditions, why do you need Ertiga if this is your primary usage. Load the vehicles with 5-6 people or more +luggage(which these cars are used for) and let me know if Ertiga is 90% of Innova. Engine, AT, safety kit wise too Ertiga is far behind. Despite shortcomings Ertiga sells as people see value in its offering. Look at new yellow boards, most Innova have been replaced by Ertiga in city limits. For outstation Innova is the preferred one, primarily because Ertiga falls short w.r.to power, load carrying capacity. However there is no point in comparing Ertiga prices to Innova which are from different segments. If you compare to D1 segment sedans, which is where Innova competed since day 1, the price is consistent or may be 2L costlier, a premium it commands because of the success.

I have driven Ertiga a lot with 4-5 people and luggage, it works well. No issues at all, at least for me. I have done long trip of more than 1000 kms in it and it worked very well with 5 heavy people and luggage. Yes, more than 5 people and luggage, it becomes slow and driver has to work hard with it. But normally that is not the case on day to day basis for both Ertiga and Innova. Point is Innova is way too overpriced for what it offers and people have now understood the same, numbers just reflects the same. It's going south only for some time now. Ertiga example was mainly given just to show how overpriced Innova is.

Originally Posted by Technic90

So, all Toyota owners are gullible fools? Then who according to you are the smart owners?

Which car to buy is every individual's choice, so if they are getting fooled or not is not a point here. People can buy whatever they want, it's their money, nobody has right to stop them from buying expensive car.

Originally Posted by sid_deb

Are you suggesting Maruti has got the pricing all wrong? Selling a car with 90% of what the competitor offers, even doing better in certain areas at 50% of the price? While there are no discounts on the Ertiga, MSIL does seem to go aggressive on its pricing and hence runs a discount shop all 12 months even on its hot selling products like Swift, Alto

Eeco may not be comparable to Ertiga but the Triber surely is then, correct? Maybe Renault can also increase their prices by 2-3X

Ertiga is rightly priced. That is the only reason it's sales are on fire and it has more than 6 months waiting period.

[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by aniketi

I have driven Ertiga a lot with 4-5 people and luggage, it works well. No issues at all, at least for me. I have done long trip of more than 1000 kms in it and it worked very well with 5 heavy people and luggage. Yes, more than 5 people and luggage, it becomes slow and driver has to work hard with it. But normally that is not the case on day to day basis for both Ertiga and Innova. Point is Innova is way too overpriced for what it offers and people have now understood the same, numbers just reflects the same. It's going south only for some time now. Ertiga example was mainly given just to show how overpriced Innova is.

Works well need not mean it's 90% of Innova. An Eeco too would carry 4-5 people with luggage pretty well and for person looking just at moving people, it's 100% of Ertiga. And BTW all three fall under Van/MPV category. For day to day basis you don't need either as mostly might be driven solo , for which a hatch would do better than both. Also when you say 90%, there seem to be no consideration to 7 airbags, diesel AT, ESP, hill hold, extra space.? BTW Ertiga top spec is at best comparable to Innova GX petrol in terms of feature which retails for about 21L as against 13L of Ertiga. As for sales previous gen Innova used to clock 4-5K a month, Crysta used to consistently do 5-6K and after price hike has settled at 4-5K. Barring the factory shutdown period the numbers have been good , infact last month it did hit 6K sales too. Now I don't expect a 30L car to sell 12K a month just because Ertiga does.

[sid_deb]

Originally Posted by aniketi

Ertiga is rightly priced. That is the only reason it's sales are on fire and it has more than 6 months waiting period.

I am aware Ertiga is rightly priced. Hence the point that it can't be 90% of what Innova is or offers else MSIL won't have priced it at 35-50% compared to Innova.

MSIL knows their product and pricing well. For example, MSIL doesn't price the Brezza at 35-50% of other turbo petrol CSUVs such as Venue/Nexon. One may argue that Brezza is 90% of these turbo petrol CSUVs that are otherwise similar in dimension, weight, performance and safety. Not Ertiga vs. Innova (monocoque vs. ladder on frame, 1.1T vs 2T weight, 1.5L vs 2.7L engine, 4.3m vs 4.7m length to name a few). Just my 2 cents

[M00M]

Being a Toyota Lexus owner and my thoughts on these have always been clear. Toyota is a greedy company in India and they are happy selling less but they dont want their profit margins to drop, they just want their profits to keep increasing every few months. It is really disappointing that rather than chasing volumes, launching more international products in India, C-HR, RAV-4, etc they are just happy selling maruti tin can junk branded as Toyota (reducing their brand equity). They brought the Prius to India but overpriced it, they are bringing their RAV-4 at some stratospheric price, they brought Vellfire again stratospheric price. Are they reliable yes, but are they technologically best ? No.

They underdeliver and over price. Even the ES 300h was CKD and got a 8 lac price cut which has been quickly hiked by twice the rate cut in just over a year -- ridiculous business practices and completely disappointing business ethics. I bought the ES at the right time, now its gotten 10 lacs more than i paid just 4 months ago. Shocking !! I think the ES is the best amongst the germans and in its class but a few features are glaring omissions but still its a beauty and i wish it sold more but if Toyota keeps raising prices then people wont buy them. Ill happily buy a Lexus EV or Toyota EV as next car but Toyota stop being greedy and give us more bang for our rupee, we work hard for it.

No matter what anyone including owners say or justify, such big and often price hikes are unwarranted, not only ridiculous but infact shameless action by Toyota.

[Technic90]

Originally Posted by M00M

No matter what anyone including owners say or justify, such big and often price hikes are unwarranted, not only ridiculous but infact shameless action by Toyota.

I don't think any owners are justifying the price. No one likes to pay extra money. I would be more than happy to save few lakhs. The discussion is about comparing Innova Crysta's price point with Ertiga which in my opinion makes no sense. Also every manufacturer has been hiking prices along with government's taxes but the reason why Toyota is specially mocked is because they increase prices without adding any more features. For comparison, Harrier XZ was priced at Rs 16.25 lakhs at launch in 2019 and increased to Rs 17.50 in Feb 2020 and now it costs Rs. 17.8 lakhs. Almost 10% increase within 18 months. XZ+ costs Rs 19.05. But Harrier has been adding features, unlike Toyota. And the automatic variants cost even more. Same case with other brands as well. They add features which go on the brochure irrespective of the usage. Having said that, no doubt Toyota is priced higher for what they offer in terms of features and comforts. They are riding solely on the reliability tag, the day the tag wears off, the sales will come crashing down.

Originally Posted by aniketi

I have driven Ertiga a lot with 4-5 people and luggage, it works well. No issues at all, at least for me. I have done long trip of more than 1000 kms in it and it worked very well with 5 heavy people and luggage. Yes, more than 5 people and luggage, it becomes slow and driver has to work hard with it. But normally that is not the case on day to day basis for both Ertiga and Innova. Point is Innova is way too overpriced for what it offers and people have now understood the same, numbers just reflects the same. It's going south only for some time now. Ertiga example was mainly given just to show how overpriced Innova is. .

You also won't face any problem driving Alto with 5 people and luggage. Our Alto did it for 20 years and I didn't face any issue. But the experience is not the same with Ertiga, Innova Crysta or GLE. Let me list the fact why I don't agree with Ertiga being 90% of Innova. You can find Ertiga better than Innova based on your personal preference but they are not similar in any way.

1. Ladder on frame vs Monocoque
2. 2.4 Turbodiesel vs 1.5 NA Petrol
3. RWD vs FWD
4. 4735x1830x1795mm vs 4395x1735x1690mm
5. Hydraulic vs Electric steering
6. 1900kgs vs 1200kgs
7. Suspension setup etc. You can see where I am going with this.

Innova averages 4-5k sales per month with 6k units sold last month and if you find that disappointing for a 30 lakh car, you should find Ertiga's sales even more disappointing because its average sales are usually double of Innova's at 1/3rd the price (except during plant shutdown or facelift imminent launch). Not sure what you think of Fortuner sales, but it has always been leading the segment just like Innova even in its worst sales month. No price increase or cheaper options could dethrone these 2. People in 20-30 lakh budget have many options apart from Innova - Harrier, Safari, Compass, Carnival, Hector twins to name a few. Toyota must be really smart to fool so many people into buying their product in spite of so much competition.

[M00M]

Originally Posted by Technic90

Also every manufacturer has been hiking prices along with government's taxes but the reason why Toyota is specially mocked is because they increase prices without adding any more features.

My friend i completely agree with you regarding them riding the reliability wave and the day other manufacturers catch up and Maruti Toyota starts creating problems with the joint tin can products.

However i am not sure if any taxes have gone up since the start of GST. GST has been steady, yes some taxes and restrictions on rubber parts have been changed but that does not warrant consistent price hikes every few months.

This taxes increasing googly is used by every manufacturer on 31/12 and 31/3 to raise prices and sell off old inventory and this habit is despicable and is a violation of a few laws as the Auto industry is in cahoots with each other, if you remember the German Trip going bonkers as well. Thats why im never ready to believe their taxes are increasing googly whenever they throw it at me, as its just a big lie.

One more point Toyota get bashed deservedly and why because everyone else gives discounts sometimes in lacs and lacs while Toyota doesnt give a penny. They even make you pay for floormats.

The only reason i went with them is because i felt the product was superior and correctly priced at that time, and also proper hybrid. And i had a bad experience with BMW which made me turned off towards them.

[Technic90]

Originally Posted by M00M

My friend i completely agree with you regarding them riding the reliability wave and the day other manufacturers catch up and Maruti Toyota starts creating problems with the joint tin can products.

However i am not sure if any taxes have gone up since the start of GST. GST has been steady, yes some taxes and restrictions on rubber parts have been changed but that does not warrant consistent price hikes every few months.

This taxes increasing googly is used by every manufacturer on 31/12 and 31/3 to raise prices and sell off old inventory and this habit is despicable and is a violation of a few laws as the Auto industry is in cahoots with each other, if you remember the German Trip going bonkers as well. Thats why im never ready to believe their taxes are increasing googly whenever they throw it at me, as its just a big lie.

One more point Toyota get bashed deservedly and why because everyone else gives discounts sometimes in lacs and lacs while Toyota doesnt give a penny. They even make you pay for floormats.

The only reason i went with them is because i felt the product was superior and correctly priced at that time, and also proper hybrid. And i had a bad experience with BMW which made me turned off towards them.

Same here. I had to buy floor mats for Fortuner after spending Rs. 45+ lakhs and mud flaps+floor mats for Innova Crysta. Sad.

I completely agree that no one is a saint here, definitely not Toyota or our government. By taxes, I also meant the indirect ones like when government increases import duty on Chinese steel, the manufacturer has to pay more or buy Indian steel which is priced higher. Finally, the consumer ends up paying for the import duty hike, not the manufacturer. There is no free lunch. Similar duties and taxes have been raised on foreign rubber (for tyres), electronics and chips. At the end of the day, Indian manufacturing is not self-reliant like China, a lot of components have to be imported for which our government loves taxing the hell out of. The Smart TV that I bought from Malaysia costs more than double here.

Toyota is definitely on the greedier side but that's capitalism. I hope they at least keep up the reliability and service promise.

[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by M00M

One more point Toyota get bashed deservedly and why because everyone else gives discounts sometimes in lacs and lacs while Toyota doesnt give a penny. They even make you pay for floormats.

The only reason i went with them is because i felt the product was superior and correctly priced at that time, and also proper hybrid. And i had a bad experience with BMW which made me turned off towards them.

Originally Posted by Technic90

Same here. I had to buy floor mats for Fortuner after spending Rs. 45+ lakhs and mud flaps+floor mats for Innova Crysta. Sad.

Toyota is definitely on the greedier side but that's capitalism. I hope they at least keep up the reliability and service promise.

You are taking example of Fortuner and Crysta alone. Glanza, Urban Cruiser, Etios duos, Corolla were priced well/in line with competition. Yaris was priced optimistically and bombed in market mainly because it didn't have legacy like Corolla/Innova. Look how City defines the price range for C segment. As for discounts, Fortuner/Crysta don't get because why would anyone offer discount for a product that commands waiting most of the times. Ask for a discount on Creta/Seltos, and you will know. That said come December/Jan, you get good discounts on Toyota too. I have got 85K(including 15K accessory) on Crysta ZX in Dec 2018 and 45K on GX Crysta in Oct 2018. There are discounts on Fortuner too in December, though not in lacs like some competition. When I was picking up facelift Fortuner, there was pre-facelift 4x2MT, discount offered was max 1.2L . Within a week after launch of facelift, the car was sold with 1.2L discount.

For Crysta and Fortuner, its simple demand and supply. While few find that Toyota is fleecing, most find value for the money they are paying. While Toyota is not Apple of cars, never felt Apple is fleecing customers? when you can get cheaper phones with more features. Ownership experience, brand and to some extent past legacy matters too.

I think the dealer is misguiding or charging incorrectly for mats. Every Fortuner/Crysta comes with Rubber mats/mudflaps from Factory, this is not an accessory.

Back to topic on price hike, I too heard price increase will be to the tune of 30-40K for Crysta. Dealer was not very sure about Fortuner as compared to Innova, Fortuner got a steep hike with facelift.

[fhdowntheline]

With the Alcazar looming large, if Toyota want to dig their own grave with the pricing hike, they are welcome. Its only us automotive enthusiasts who rue this . The customer will happily move on to the next suitable option!