[Vigkey]

I had decided long back that once I get my registration approved, my first post will be in this thread. And here I am.

Jazz is one car I am eagerly looking forward to. Either Jazz or i20 will be my first "new" car which I plan to buy by mid this year. Seeing that production has started for the Jazz has me all excited. Really happy that Jazz has 3 versions with the below features.

Base Variant
-> Wheel Caps
-> Black ORVM and door handles
-> Single wipers?? (Not sure)
-> 175 R15 tires??

Mid Variant
-> Alloy Wheels
-> Body Colored ORVM and door handles
-> Seat belt height adjuster (something missing even in the City)
-> Rear wiper and defogger
-> 175 R15 tires??

Top Variant
-> Fog Lamps
-> Chrome Lip in front grille
-> ORVM with turn indicators
-> No DRLs
-> Shark fin antenna?? Cant see any antenna on the front

The fact that the model has Black Interiors is really welcome. However, all this makes me wonder if this is really for the Indian market. I hope and wish this is for Indian market itself and not for some export market.

Originally Posted by CarNerd

So Honda is readying another rattler.. The design is average, infact the previous gen Jazz looked better. The interiors too are nothing special, but the main USP is lots of space compared to its rivals. It definitely lacks the X-factor that the Elite has..

Jazz, another Rattler? Request you to enlighten me on how you arrived at this conclusion.

Well, design, looks and X-factors depends totally on ones' perspective. I, for one, feel the new model is much more attractive compared to the bug-eyed previous generation. The Civic inspired design is very contemporary and will not get out-dated soon IMO. Interiors are very similar to City and I feel it is adequate for the segment.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

It definitely lacks the X-factor that the Elite has..

While we are all comparing the Jazz with the Elite i20, I think there is another big threat to the new Jazz.

Whats the USP for the new Jazz? Looks like its going to be space, with quite a few praises for the magic seats. Versatile, yes.

And that brings us to the Ertiga. Even with the magic seats, you cant match the space and versatility on offer in an Ertiga. It seats seven when needed (atleast for city trips!) and has almost 735L boot space with both rows folded. And it starts at 5.89L for the 1.4 petrol. If the rumours are to be believed - it is going to get a 1.5 diesel and an AMT tranmission soon as well. And it always looked like a stretched Jazz anyways!

Honda better consider this as well while pricing the Jazz. With the Amaze priced starting at 5.18L and City at 7.53L, I think Jazz will be priced closer to Ertiga, making the latter look rather VFM.

Originally Posted by Vigkey

Jazz, another Rattler? Request you to enlighten me on how you arrived at this conclusion.

Interiors are very similar to City and I feel it is adequate for the segment.

Not sure if he meant the same thing - but the interiors of the current generation City develops rattles early in the ownership cycles, with half a dozen members reporting even dashboard rattles within a few thousand kilometers of ownership. Jazz with same interiors and even more cost cutting doesn't sound promising in that aspect.

[Grand Drive]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Honda better consider this as well while pricing the Jazz. With the Amaze priced starting at 5.18L and City at 7.53L, I think Jazz will be priced closer to Ertiga, making the latter look rather VFM

Excellent Insight ! Jazz must be definitely priced equivalent or less than Elite i20 rather than to be priced between Amaze and City. When previous gen Jazz launched, it boosted the sales of i20 making it as an excellent VFM. Now, if they launch the new Jazz close to Ertiga, then it looks Ertiga to be an excellent value for money but most people looking for a hatchback will consider Elite i20 than Ertiga and will create more demand for Elite i20.

[CarNerd]

Originally Posted by Vigkey

Jazz, another Rattler? Request you to enlighten me on how you arrived at this conclusion.

Firstly, welcome to Team-bhp and congrats on your first post! About enlightenment, I think you should ask those City owners who were enlightened about rattles in their cars Happy posting

[abkett]

@vigkey - i agree with carnerd . honda is the most aspired car brand in india . source -economic times .

city sells its 6th generation in a short span with long waiting periods . honda is known for refinement , responsiveness and enthusiasm .

jazz will be another rattler without any doubt . It is the most anticipated launch of this year and might be even the COTY . Although hyundai ix 25 is another hot launch expected , i expect jazz to be the COTY .

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

While we are all comparing the Jazz with the Elite i20, I think there is another big threat to the new Jazz.

Whats the USP for the new Jazz? Looks like its going to be space, with quite a few praises for the magic seats. Versatile, yes.

And that brings us to the Ertiga.

I don't think the comparison is justified. Anyone who is considering both the Ertiga and the Jazz in the same breath based on his needs is honestly Confused. Other than same price bracket there is nothing similar in the 2 vehicles. The Jazz along with the Eltie i20 are premium hatchbacks. Ertiga is a MUV whatever be its dimensions. I for one would never compare the two.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

I don't think the comparison is justified.

You mean to say a buyer will only look at a premium hatchback and not other equivalent priced options?

No way mate! Reminds me of an old thread-
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...pe-innova.html

Based on your thought process - a premium sedan should never have been cannibalised by a proper body on frame MPV- but it did.

Unlike the above extreme example- The differentiation between the Jazz and the Ertiga is too thin for customers to consider them like they are from two different planets - Ertiga is a stretched Swift afterall. 1. Ertiga is purely car-like to drive and own. Based on the autocar India review comments- Jazz is not exiting to drive either. 2. Jazz has a mini-MPV like cab forward stance and is no proper two box hot hatch like the Elite i20. Ertiga has always been compared to the Jazz in terms of the side profile looks. 3. The USP of the Jazz is space and practicality , which is rivalled by the pseudo 7-seater Ertiga. 4. Ertiga doesn't fall short on performance either- and rumours suggest that the upcoming facelift will up the fuel efficiency figures too. 5. Unlike traditional UVs - Ertiga shares it's interiors with the DZire and are of good quality, with a decent feature list. I don't think Jazz will get a big advantage here either.







I would like to know what is so MPV'ish here about the Ertiga. The stretched Swift was positioned as a sedan alternative, and not a proper MPV. If at all anything - its the i20 that feels like another segment here, thanks to the distinct two box looks. And lets not even start comparing the rear designs.

Originally Posted by Grand Drive

Now, if they launch the new Jazz close to Ertiga, then it looks Ertiga to be an excellent value for money but most people looking for a hatchback will consider Elite i20 than Ertiga and will create more demand for Elite i20.

Elite i20 starts at 4.89L. If they take Elite i20 head-on in terms of pricing - that leaves the Amaze sorely overpriced at 30k more than a Jazz!

Interesting game to watch. God bless competition.

[Vigkey]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

While we are all comparing the Jazz with the Elite i20, I think there is another big threat to the new Jazz.

Whats the USP for the new Jazz? Looks like its going to be space, with quite a few praises for the magic seats. Versatile, yes.

And that brings us to the Ertiga. Even with the magic seats, you cant match the space and versatility on offer in an Ertiga. It seats seven when needed (atleast for city trips!) and has almost 735L boot space with both rows folded. And it starts at 5.89L for the 1.4 petrol. If the rumours are to be believed - it is going to get a 1.5 diesel and an AMT tranmission soon as well. And it always looked like a stretched Jazz anyways!

Yes. Many in the market will compare Jazz and Ertiga and might find Ertiga as a more VFM product because of its capability to carry 2 more (??).

But if that was a serious case, same should have applied to Elite i20 as well, at least to an extent. But the sales figure says otherwise. I am sure some people who considered Elite i20 would have considered Ertiga as well and might have chosen the latter. But that probably does not form the majority.

I guess, people recognize premium hatchback as a proper segment now. Something which is practical in cities as well as highways, has excellent features and quality and is VFM in its own respect.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Not sure if he meant the same thing - but the interiors of the current generation City develops rattles early in the ownership cycles, with half a dozen members reporting even dashboard rattles within a few thousand kilometers of ownership.

Yes, I too have read that in City ownership threads. But I would give a benefit of doubt to Honda as the general feedback is that it has been minimized / eliminated in the later batches. Since Jazz belongs to the same platform, I think they will come out with a much better finished car.

Even in previous generation, Jazz was better built and had better quality interiors compared to City. That primarily was because City was more localized then. But for Honda, Jazz is a global product and City is not. So I hope Honda maintains better quality in Jazz. Fingers crossed.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Jazz with same interiors and even more cost cutting doesn't sound promising in that aspect.

Yes CD. Jazz will have similar interiors which is revealed by the international model. But we are simply assuming the cost cutting part. Honda saying that the product will be priced sensibly need not be read "cost-cutting". Let us wait for the product to be unveiled and if what you said is true, I will be the first to throw the brick.

Originally Posted by abkett

@vigkey - i agree with carnerd . honda is the most aspired car brand in india . source -economic times .

jazz will be another rattler without any doubt .

Abkett, I guess you are misinterpreting here. Carnerd means the car will rattle a lot i.e. it will be rickety because he expects the build quality to be bad.

Originally Posted by drmohitg

I don't think the comparison is justified. Anyone who is considering both the Ertiga and the Jazz in the same breath based on his needs is honestly Confused. Other than same price bracket there is nothing similar in the 2 vehicles. The Jazz along with the Eltie i20 are premium hatchbacks. Ertiga is a MUV whatever be its dimensions. I for one would never compare the two.

I too agree with you to an extent Dr. sir. I will never do that. But unfortunately that is how our market behaves. We are always confused. We consider Zest, i20, Duster and Innova in the same breath. And there will be many who consider Jazz and Ertiga just because the price will be almost same and Ertiga can seat 2 more.

[amoghchaphalkar]

Is it only me who thinks that the base variant has a single wiper while the top variant has two?

Overall nice looking car! Looks like Honda has another winner on it's hands.

[Vigkey]

Originally Posted by amoghchaphalkar

Is it only me who thinks that the base variant has a single wiper while the top variant has two?

Overall nice looking car! Looks like Honda has another winner on it's hands.

Yes Amogh. I too felt the same. That is the impression the spy-shots give. If you notice, I have listed that in my first post as well. If that is really the case, Honda will be evident of doing serious cost-cutting in the base variant.

I agree that the car is nice looking. It might not be a stand-out looker like the Elite i20 though.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Vigkey

But if that was a serious case, same should have applied to Elite i20 as well, at least to an extent.

Elite i20 beats the Ertiga hands down in terms of several USPs - design, quality (Even the City is no match here!), features and even pricing - which starts 1L less than the Ertiga. Lets hope Honda matches the i20 pricing rather than Ertiga pricing.

However - coming to the Jazz. What is its USP? From comments above - it seems to be space and flexibility. Now that will come under serious fire from Ertiga.

Originally Posted by Vigkey

I guess, people recognize premium hatchback as a proper segment now. Something which is practical in cities as well as highways, has excellent features and quality and is VFM in its own respect.

True. And in which of these aspects - do you expect the Jazz to beat the Ertiga convincingly?

Originally Posted by Vigkey

City ownership threads. But I would give a benefit of doubt to Honda as the general feedback is that it has been minimized / eliminated in the later batches.

Source of info please? Owners were complaining of rattles till October 2014. Which later batches are we talking about here? And were was this 'general feedback' shared?

Originally Posted by Vigkey

Since Jazz belongs to the same platform, I think they will come out with a much better finished car.

Even in previous generation, Jazz was better built and had better quality interiors compared to City. That primarily was because City was more localized then. But for Honda, Jazz is a global product and City is not. So I hope Honda maintains better quality in Jazz. Fingers crossed.

So you mean to say - Jazz will be priced 2.6L less than City. Will have better quality than City even though it shares the same parts, and will be screwed together better? Lets hope so then! The 2.6L again is an assumption - if it needs to go head-on against the Elite i20

By the way - Jazz shared the platform with the 2nd generation City. And it had excellent interiors. The 3rd generation City was different and built from grounds up, rather than an add-on boot on the Jazz.

Originally Posted by Vigkey

But we are simply assuming the cost cutting part. Honda saying that the product will be priced sensibly need not be read "cost-cutting". Let us wait for the product to be unveiled and if what you said is true, I will be the first to throw the brick.

Yes right. Its all assumptions only till the product finally hits the market. But we being chit-chatty enthusiasts, can't sit silent till then, can we?

[RSR]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

You mean to say a buyer will only look at a premium hatchback and not other equivalent priced options?

No way mate! Reminds me of an old example-
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...pe-innova.html

Based on your thought process - a premium sedan should never have been by a proper body on frame MPV - but it did.

CrazY dRiVeR, I think you have a valid point that the Ertiga may prove to be an indirect competitor to the Jazz, taking space and price considerations into account. The Ertiga is also pretty car like to drive, no doubt, despite its appearance as a compact MPV.

However, what drmohitg means is that only some customers will cross shop between the Jazz and Ertiga, given the differences between the two.

For instance, I don't see why a small nuclear family (a couple with/without a kid or two) who are going in for their first (new) car would need to view the Ertiga as a possible choice. For them, it is an MPV with 7-seats meant for large families. The last row seats are completely unnecessary for them, and they may feel the Ertiga with the same isn't exactly a "car".

It's a similar case with people who are going for a second/third car for daily office use (ease of city driving/parking) by a family member, with the family already having (an)other larger car(s), like one from the C2 segment or above. I've seen quite a few families with a C2/D1/D2 segment vehicle in their garage, yet using a premium hatchback as their daily driver in the city and/or as a beater vehicle, with the larger car meant for family travel and highway duties.

The USP of the Jazz is definitely going to be space and practicality, no doubt. My aunt's brother has a Jazz and he is full of praise for its unmatched versatility with space. He rates it as the car's no.1 USP, ahead of the rev-happy Honda i-VTEC. If Honda are going to retain the magic seats in the new Jazz, then the car will definitely have its fans.

Having said that, the USP of the Jazz is going to be its space & practicality amongst large hatchbacks only (& not compact MPVs). These cars generally have a fairly limited amount of room in the rear seat - the Swift, Polo, Punto and old i20 (I don't know about Fabia) are not particularly spacious at the rear. Only the new i20 and upcoming YRA are spacious at the rear, but they don't have the flexibility of those magic seats.

Lest I forget, the Ertiga has been around for quite a while now (facelift is due) and the Jazz is going to be fresh out of the oven. B2 segment customers are rather finicky about having the latest, newest and most stylish. A compact MPV with neutral looks that has been around for a while may not find favour with such buyers.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

However - coming to the Jazz. What is its USP? From comments above - it seems to be space and flexibility. Now that will come under serious fire from Ertiga.

I think these thoughts are based on a basic assumption that the Jazz will have the same level of (or lesser) fit and finish as the City. Which is quite a possibility because India is probably the only market where Honda is forced to sell the Jazz at price point significantly lower than the City. In every other market the hatchback is more expensive than the sedan, which effectively is a compromise for selected regions/markets.

I hope Honda is brave enough to launch the Jazz with same level of quality as in other markets. Unlike earlier days, the Indian market now is not averse to hatchbacks in the range of 9-10 lakhs. If it happens, the car definitely will be a match or probably better in quality than the likes of i20.

[adimicra]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Elite i20 beats the Ertiga hands down in terms of several USPs - design, quality (Even the City is no match here!), features and even pricing - which starts 1L less than the Ertiga. Lets hope Honda matches the i20 pricing rather than Ertiga pricing.

However - coming to the Jazz. What is its USP? From comments above - it seems to be space and flexibility. Now that will come under serious fire from Ertiga.

True. And in which of these aspects - do you expect the Jazz to beat the Ertiga convincingly?

So, you are assuming that Jazz will not have better quality, features and design than Ertiga?

Even if the quality is similar to the City, it's not a bad thing at all.
The City is the undisputed C+ segment leader selling 6-8K units per month for a 10L car. How can similar quality as the best-seller of the C+ segment car be bad for a B+ segment car? I know you have done your research about the bad quality of the new City but the market seems to be happy with the car. Secondly, some of the issues you have mentioned would have reached Honda by now and they would have had time to correct those in the new batches of City..So, the jazz should have lesser of those issues anyway.


Also, the City is much more well loaded than Ertiga..so I would expect Jazz to beat Ertiga hands down in terms of features.

And design is a subjective thing. But I guess everyone will agree that Ertiga is not a looker whereas a good percentage of people find the new Jazz to be a looker. So, it definitely beats the Ertiga hands down in design. And I believe Jazz will have much better aspirational value than Ertiga.

About the quality aspect, the previous gen Jazz had outstanding quality and much better than the City. That was one of the reasons I went for it in spite of the premium pricing. After 4.5 years and 50000 kms, I don't have a single issue/niggle/rattle. And the engine runs as smooth as new. If I don't tell my car's age, 99% people think it to be a relatively new car.

It's very clear that Honda has resorted to cost cutting to keep the price down. But, as long as they cut down on the features of the base-mid variants, it should be fine. What's not acceptable if they compromise on the quality aspects. It's going to be very interesting launch indeed. I hope the car gets the success this time which it deserves.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by RSR

For instance, I don't see why a small nuclear family (a couple with/without a kid or two) who are going in for their first (new) car would need to view the Ertiga as a possible choice. For them, it is an MPV with 7-seats meant for large families. The last row seats are completely unnecessary for them, and they may feel the Ertiga with the same isn't exactly a "car".

Thanks buddy. I see the whole crux of your reply is in this paragraph - so let me just counter the same.

• http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...rtiga-zdi.html (For wife. Other cars considered - Honda Jazz, VW Polo)
• http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...rtiga-zxi.html (5 seater. Other cars considered - Honda Jazz, Polo, i20 and Figo)
• http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...rtiga-zdi.html (Single person usage. Other cars considered - Octavia, Fluence, Corolla Altis, Jetta)
• http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...rtiga-zdi.html ( 4+ 2 kids. Other cars considered - Scorpio, Ecosport, Linea, Duster, Safari Storme)
• http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...-counting.html (Other cars considered - Vento TDi, XUV 5OO, Duster, Second hand T-Fort).
• http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...stretched.html (5 seater with a good boot. Other cars considered - Honda Amaze, Toyota Etios, Skoda Rapid, Ford Ecosport, Renault Duster).
• http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...00-kms-up.html (5 seater. Other cars considered - Renault Duster, Ford Ecosport, SX4, Vento, Linea, Sunny, Honda City).
• http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...di-review.html (Single usage. Other cars considered - Wanted only a Maruti Suzuki. Previous car was the Skoda Fabia)
• http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/what-c...ti-ertiga.html
• http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ip-report.html (Other car considered - Honda City)

Instead of a counter argument - I present to you a sample database of BHP'ians who went for the Ertiga. Except for two or three ownership reviews (You are most welcome to google), most other BHP'ians purchased it after shortlisting premium hatchbacks, and even premium sedans!

I guess there is no point in my debating further on this, as more data can't be provided. So let me re-iterate that - IMHO the 'versatile' Jazz will come under fire from the Ertiga if it goes directly against it in terms of pricing, unless it has other tricks up it's sleeve. End of my arguments on this topic.

Originally Posted by vb-san

I hope Honda is brave enough to launch the Jazz with same level of quality as in other markets.

I hope so as well - but lack of body colour door handles and ORVMs, the old-school antenna on the base and mid variants, lack of rear headrests on base and mid variants (forget magic seats) etc point otherwise.