[arvindb4]

Originally Posted by bhpfaninblr

Frontal cortex damage can cause a change in personality and impulsive behavior/disinhibition and attention deficits. There could be a lot of challenges still ahead and we pray for the best. If your doctors ever recommend a checkup at NIMHANS, PM me. My wife is a neurologist there and we will be happy to be of help.

This particular case of the XUV is an example where the safety systems did not work at all pointing to suspect reliability due to poor engineering. Mahindra must be sued for the damages to a young person with years of life ahead of him as a result of all this.

I am really touched. Yes you are right. We are facing these challenges everyday. I feel sad and helpless but we have to endear it in a positive spirit. I hope one day when Madhav is fine he can take over the cause and the voice for everyone.
God Bless

[AutoNoob]

Originally Posted by honeybee

https://www.araiindia.com/faqs_aype_...ertificate.asp

A stone wall.

The type approval report is given to the manufacturer who holds its distribution rights. The ARAI cannot share it with anyone else.

Originally Posted by honeybee

Someone did post about making a request for the ARAI type certification for the particular model of the vehicle and the ARAI website states that the certification data can only be shared by the manufacturer and not by ARAI to the public.

Originally Posted by arvindb4

Regarding the present situation with the airbag issue. I remain bewildered why I have still not been provided with the answers to my queries placed on the airbag certifications. They are critical for engaging a reputed independent investigation Company.

I checked with an industry insider (without referring to this particular case) and per him an RTI application can be made to ARAI requesting the required documents.

Now, two connected points/sections need to be understood from the RTI Act 2005 [Link] :

1. ARAI, being a body under government, is bound to disclose the records available with it under RTI. [Section 2 (a) & (h)]
2. The information which cannot be denied to the Parliament or a State Legislature shall not be denied to any person. Also, the private information, where the Central Public Information Officer or the State Public Information Officer or the appellate authority, as the case may be, is satisfied that the larger public interest justifies the disclosure of such information shall be disclosed. [Section 8 (1)(j)]

So, Arvind can file a RTI application to ARAI citing above clauses and also, public interest (safety) to demand for required documents.

The ARAI, in all certainty, will deny the information citing business know-how or some other frivolous reason in favour of the manufacturer. Now, this will serve two purposes for Arvind :

1. The denial by ARAI will open the path to appeal till CIC/ Higher Courts. In my personal experience, CIC is very friendly forum and allows most of the genuine appeals. This is long drawn process, but in my cases results have been on my side (the Public Authority provided the necessary information on orders from CIC and didn't resort to appeal against it in high court).
2. In a likely scenario where this case moves to court of law, it will substantiate that Arvind tried all legally possible ways to get the information. There Arvind can appeal for submission of the required documents from the defendants (manufacturers/suppliers).

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and this information is shared based on personal first hand experience.
Professional legal advice may be sought on this before proceeding further.

[arvindb4]

Originally Posted by SDP

Good to have you back Arvind and glad to read about progress on Madhav's health.

Its been almost 3 and half months since the accident. I do understand that you have been busy tending to your son, and that has been the highest priority. But do you have a timeline in mind when you would be ready to take the next step from actually starting the legal proceedings perspective?

Do you have a discussion currently open with Mahindras? I am aware of the certification related questions that you have asked and have gone unanswered. Were there any phone-conversations/email-exchanges with Mahindras prior to that? Since, you are anyways not getting any traction from Mahindras and a legal proceeding seems to be the only option, what's the harm in sharing those email-exchanges now (after masking names, email addresses, phone numbers)?

Now that you know that Mahindra's are not going to willingly provide the certification details that you have asked for (the details that one of the investigation agency wanted), what's the next step? Would the investigation agency be able to do an actual forensic investigation without the certification details? If not, are you talking to any other agency to get the investigation done?

There is no traction at the moment with the manufacturer.
and I can't do much if they choose to stonewall me. All reputed international test agencies have their protocol and being an Indian made car, first thing required is the certification.
I certainly do have a time line and under the circumstances the legal way seems to be the only option left in order to expedite.
Yes there are communications but I need to check if I can share them at this stage. However I shall certainly, at the right moment share every bit of information.
The only meaningful thing that the Manufacturer has done in the last three months was to send Madhav a 'Get Well Soon' Card.

Originally Posted by Cavalier

Why Didn't My Airbag Deploy?

https://www.clarkfountain.com/blog/2...ht-not-deploy/

The site mentions ->

Airbag technology has been credited with preventing millions of serious injuries and saving numerous lives. Although airbags are one of the most important safety features of vehicles today, defects in their design or manufacturing could cause them to fail and not deploy during critical moments when they are needed most.

When airbags fail to deploy during a car accident, drivers and passengers have nothing to protect them from severe impacts against a steering wheel, window, or other parts of the vehicle. As such, they face substantial risks of suffering serious and even fatal injuries.

Why Didn't My Airbag Deploy?

There might be several reasons:

The nature of the collision – The type of crash that occurred can play a major factor in whether or not airbags are deployed. Depending on where your vehicle was struck, airbag sensors might not have been triggered. This can happen when frontal airbags do not fire in certain types of rollover collisions, or during side or rear impact crashes. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), the location of the impact is a better indicator of whether an airbag should have deployed than a vehicle’s speed or the extent of damage it sustained. For example, frontal airbag deployment should be expected in moderate to severe impacts to the front bumper or front corners of your vehicle.

Airbag sensors were defective – If the impact of a collision should have triggered an airbag to deploy, but it did not, it may be possible that the sensors failed to correctly detect the impact or deploy the airbag. This could be the result of manufacturers that improperly design, test, or install sensors, as well as failures in software or calibration of the airbag firing threshold. In some cases, there may not have been enough airbag sensors to properly detect a crash, which is often the result of overly cost-conscientious manufacturers who place profits over people.

Defective electrical components – When airbag sensors operate as they should and an impact should have triggered deployment, airbag failures could have been caused by defective electrical components or wiring designed to communicate impact signals to the airbags. When these components are defectively designed or manufactured or are affected by faulty clock springs in the steering column, failures can occur. This commonly happens in collisions where one or multiple airbags deploy, but another airbag does not.

Wiring is severed – Researchers have found that airbag failures can occur when manufacturers choose to route wires through areas that make them susceptible to being severed during a crash. When wiring installed in vulnerable areas are damaged or severed, it will prevent impact signals from reaching the airbag module.
Defects in airbag modules – Defects in the airbag module itself could very well prevent an airbag from firing when it should. There have been cases in which it was determined that impact signals correctly identified a collision and commanded an airbag to deploy, but the airbag module did not respond. This is often the result of inherent design or manufacturing defects, as well as improper quality control protocol.

Airbags may be complex pieces of safety technology, but auto manufacturers have a legal responsibility to ensure they operate as they are intended and as consumers would expect. Generally, your airbags should deploy in any collision in which a driver or passenger would suffer injuries airbags are designed to prevent, including head, neck, and spine injuries

Originally Posted by AutoNoob

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and this information is shared based on personal first hand experience.
Professional legal advice may be sought on this before proceeding further.

Extremely valuable inputs sir. I have noted these down. You maybe right. Probably this is how it's going to happen.

Mod Note: Please quote ONLY the relevant bits of a post. Quoting a full, long post inconveniences our mobile readers.

[Rudra Sen]

arvindb4, please use the EDIT or MULTI-QUOTE buttons instead of typing one post after another on the SAME THREAD!

To know how to multi-quote, click here.

We advise you to read the Forum Rules before proceeding any further.

[V.Narayan]

A competent lawyer with a sharp bite is your real option now. Some one with a track record of shaking a big corporation. If in your shoes I would go for it. Only challenge is that competent lawyers are expensive. M&M's strategy clearly is to wear you out. If they had been upfront and forthcoming they would have won some goodwill with your family and the tens of thousands who read this forum. Sadly it is otherwise. Be careful not to post your thoughts on social media once you go legal - it could go against you and the legal eagles at M&M will be waiting and watching.

[arvindb4]

I am getting over step warnings again from the mod. Shall try again. Apologies to the mods. My day starts at 5 am and can never sleep before 2 am. We are middle class normal people. Everyone at home is completely focused on Madhav. Last 3 months have been hellish. I am the only one who can step in to help with their work and also have to constantly be there for Madhav. Now another front with the Manufacturer seems to open.
I do my Vipassana while I am awake and active, walking or driving or waiting in hospital lounges.
It's okay if they ban me again.
We are fighting new battles every day. His frontal cortex damage induces suicidal tendencies. Don't want to go at length. We took for neuro psychiatric. We can't leave him alone for a moment.
Maybe I should ask someone to help me on a different platform. Where without fear or hesitation or violation, I can freely express.

[bhpfaninblr]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Only challenge is that competent lawyers are expensive. M&M's strategy clearly is to wear you out.

It is extremely difficult to take on a large corporation but it is not impossible. There will be lawyers who will be happy to fight some cases for free. An individual can win against a powerful entity legally.

It is possible to find a good lawyer who might fight with reasonable fees or even fight for free as it would enhance his public image.

Originally Posted by arvindb4

There is no traction at the moment with the manufacturer.

This is what we had expected from Mahindra. They will engage a lawyer to bring about 2-3 points as to why airbags should not have deployed and wash their hands off this.

Originally Posted by arvindb4

I
I do my Vipassana while I am awake and active, walking or driving or waiting in hospital lounges.

My suggestion is to take a break from the forum for a few weeks. Any comments in support of Mahindra, aspersions on whether seat belts were worn and arguments that airbags are not required to be deployed in this case will only work you up further. In case you need any assistance in NIMHANS, please PM me

[Biraj]

Originally Posted by arvindb4

Maybe I should ask someone to help me on a different platform. Where without fear or hesitation or violation, I can freely express.

Arvind, I can empathise with you. I have spent a considerable amount of time in the past couple of years on a hospital bed and have seen my family suffer because of it. So I know your mental state and the related exasperation.

I have been a member of this forum for a long time and can say it confidently, without any bias that this is one of the most informational and fair forums you will find at this point. This isn't a forum that is likely to buckle under pressure from automotive manufacturers or brands. However, this forum is what it is because of the rules/norms it follows. So you will have to watch and follow the compliance part.

My personal suggestion will be to create a page on Facebook specific to this case so that it can be shared and made viral through various methods. The email ID that you have prepared and mentioned on the flyers is too long. A smaller and easier to remember ID might improve the response rate. I know the emotions that you, your family and Madhav's friends are going through but please make the campaign more specific. Targeting "Make in India" isn't going to cut much ice.

As mentioned in an earlier post on this page, please be careful about what you post online as it might get used during trial if you do go legal.


You have our wishes and support!

Best,
Biraj

[AutoNoob]

Originally Posted by arvindb4

Extremely valuable inputs sir. I have noted these down. You maybe right. Probably this is how it's going to happen.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

A competent lawyer with a sharp bite is your real option now. Some one with a track record of shaking a big corporation. If in your shoes I would go for it. Only challenge is that competent lawyers are expensive. M&M's strategy clearly is to wear you out.

If it goes the legal way, I'll suggest that Arvind can make following as respondents to take the case to logical conclusion :

1. Mahindra & Mahindra (Manufacturer)
2. ARAI (Certification Agency)
3. Ministry of Industries, Government of India (Establishing Ministry for ARAI)
4. Ministry of Road Transport and Highways (Ministry responsible for making Rules under Central Motor Vehicle Act)
5. Suppliers of Airbags, Airbag Control Unit & Crash Sensors (accelerometers) may also be included.

Also, in my opinion, the conditions depicted in owner's manual (for deployment/ non-deployment of airbags) don't hold good because :

1. A customer is not made aware of the same before purchasing a vehicle.
2. IIRC, no brochure/marketing material depicts any of these conditions and this amounts to false claims during marketing - infact a customer is made to believe that the safety systems will always work.
3. A common customer is not competent to query about/ understand the in-depth technical aspects (or in this case deployment conditions) for every system of a complex machine like car, particularly at the initial stages i.e. at the time of purchase.
4. And, sadly, this is true for almost every OEM, not just M&M.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by arvindb4

I am getting over step warnings again from the mod. Shall try again. Apologies to the mods. My day starts at 5 am and can never sleep before 2 am.

Dear Arvind,

You are uploading attachments, using the 'thanks' function, replying to all posts, quoting posts and have even figured out how to start a new thread. Thus, there is absolutely no reason why you should ignore one important part of our rules - multi-quoting. Among other reasons, we don't permit back to back posts as it can artificially boost a member's post count, thanks count and their membership levels. Plus, imagine how a thread will look if all 15 posts on a thread page are from one member only.

We empathise with you and completely understand the situation your family is going through. However, despite the situation, wherever you go, please respect the rules & policies of that place.

As a special case, we will do this = please PM me your cellphone number. I will have someone call you and explain the back-to-back posting procedure. However, I must be clear on one thing = Team-BHP rules are expected to be followed by everyone. We make no exceptions. Hence, before you spent your next 30 minutes reading & posting on this thread, I would request you to spend 10 minutes here. If still not sure, PM me your number and I'll have my team call you and explain the multi-quoting process.

Maybe I should ask someone to help me on a different platform. Where without fear or hesitation or violation, I can freely express.

You are most welcome to, but please also appreciate how Team-BHP has helped you out here. Your thread has been viewed 2.68 lakh times already & hundreds of BHPians have helped you out with advice. I don't think it would be the case on any other platform.

It's your call. But on Team-BHP, we make no exceptions on our forum rules. It's what helps Team-BHP maintain a clean, organised, informational & fun forum (which is perhaps the reason you signed up with us in the first place).

Thanks for the support & understanding . Get well soon to Madhav .

[arvindb4]

I hope that I am not overstepping for the mods. I don't think any other platform would have extended unconditionally as the bhpians have done. My immense gratitude to all including the mods who have gone out of the way everytime I faltered with the rules.
I am a tenacious and a committed Dad. I don't think anything will tire me out.
I want my bhp-ians friends to wait. I promise to shake all the stake holders with the truth.

[Axe77]

Originally Posted by arvindb4

I hope that I am not overstepping for the mods. I don't think any other platform would have extended unconditionally as the bhpians have done. My immense gratitude to all including the mods who have gone out of the way everytime I faltered with the rules.
I am a tenacious and a committed Dad. I don't think anything will tire me out.
I want my bhp-ians friends to wait. I promise to shake all the stake holders with the truth.

I am so very sorry to hear about the tragedy you and your family are going through. It is very very disappointing at how this vehicle has spectacularly failed to protect the occupants in such a spectacular crash.

I hope your son recovers soon and I do hope you get meaningful and timely justice from the relevant stakeholders from whatever legal proceedings you pursue.

[GTO]

Sanjoy Gupta (Head Customer Care, Automotive Division - Mahindra) sends in the following email. In my opinion, Mahindra is being fair. Both parties need to sit on the table and decide future course of action with reference to the investigation. This will also benefit other XUV500 owners who are understandably very concerned:

Dear Admin Team-BHP , at the outset let me state that we remain concerned about Madhav’s health and continue to wish him well for a steady recovery. With doctors doing their best and God’s grace, we desire that he continues to make good progress.

Over the past couple of months we had refrained from reacting to various posts and had shared ONLY with TeamBHP admin a note from Mr Rajan Wadhera, President of Auto Sector, transparently communicating certain facts about the XUV500. We have taken note of posts on the thread and have observed that there are several incomplete facts which have been put out about the incident and our response and/or non-response to it. Given that all the information shared is not complete and factually correct, we felt it appropriate to share facts and request that you post it on your forum such that your readers have a balanced view of how events have progressed.

A car is a machine and whether a machine has malfunctioned or not can be known only if an investigation is conducted. Hence, in the instance , we were willing to conduct transparent investigation.

In recent post of 19th Aug it was stated by Mr Arvind that the vehicle was not inspected though it was brought to the dealer’s workshop and was lying there for several days for processing of insurance claim and even though duplicate keys were sent to the dealer. In this connection, we reproduce below the e-mail sent on 19th May, 2018, by General Manager of dealership to Mr. Bhardwaj, with our local manager Opinder in copy that is self-explanatory :

QUOTE START

From: Kapil Garg [mailto:xxxxx.xxxxx@konceptmahindra.com]

Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2018 2:26 PM

To: xxxxxxx@gmail.com

Cc: NAYYAR OPINDER <xxx.xxx@mahindra.com>

Subject: Your Vehicle Regn No DL4CNB9982, XUV5OO

Dear Mr. Bhardwaj,

Greetings from Koncept Mahindra!!!

This is in reference regarding your vehicle bearing Regn No DL4CNB9982, XUV5OO. We regret this unfortunate incident and totally empathies by this.

The said vehicle was reported to our body repair workshop on 12th May 18 at 08:20 PM through towing service.

We have been in touch with Mr. Chetan Bhardwaj and Mr. Navin Singhal for the keys procurement but till 18th May 18 we did not receive the keys.

Without keys we are unable to diagnose on the mentioned attention for Air Bag not opening. Since after vehicle survey, on surveyor confirmation you took back the vehicle on 18th May 18. You are requested to provide the keys and the vehicle at the workshop premise for further investigation on the airbag non deployment.

Meanwhile for any query/feedback do give me a call, I shall be more than happy to help you out.

We assure you best of our services.

With Regards,

Kapil Garg,

General Manager - Service,

Koncept Automobiles (P) Ltd,

A-40, MCIE, Mathura Road,

New Delhi-110044

QUOTE END

The crashed vehicle was brought to dealership on the night of 12th May, 2018 through ref of Mr Navin Singhal. Following this, our local manager was in contact with the GM of dealership to connect with customer and quickly initiate investigations, which could have happened only after completion of insurance formalities which got over on 14th May 18. Mr. Kapil Garg, the GM of our dealership had a face to face meeting with Mr Navin & Mr Chetan (Mr Arvind Bhardwaj’s brother) when they visited dealership on 14th May 18. Our local manager wanted to connect with Mr Arvind, however Mr. Chetan Bhardwaj had suggested Mr. Kapil Garg that his brother was pre-occupied and he would be the point of contact. In the given circumstances, this was quite understandable and hence we through our dealership requested Mr. Chetan for duplicate keys as originals were not found in the car, which was shown to Mr. Chetan. He had offered to procure duplicate keys from his brother, but this was not done. When the dealership followed up for the duplicate keys with Mr. Chetan Bhardwaj on 16th May , it was told that Mr. Arvind Bhardwaj did not have faith in the company's investigations and that they will be reaching out directly to our Chairman Mr. Anand Mahindra. It was later observed that e-mails were sent to Mr. Mahindra on 7th & 13th june but on an incorrect e-mail id. One of our colleagues, who was also marked on email to Mr Mahindra’s incorrect mail id , forwarded it to Abdul Syed Head of Customer Experience on 13th June.

On morning of 14th Jun Abdul called Mr Arvind and thereafter on same day Venu Mandala, Regional Manager spoke with Mr. Arvind Bhardwaj. A request was also made to kindly allow investigations. Both Abdul and Venu had sent emails to Mr Arvind urging for access to the vehicle for investigation. Venu on the call and through his mail of 14th June had sought permission to contact the co-passenger for accident reconstruction efforts, which went un-replied. In parallel, our dealership team obtained accident site locations from police station and collected evidence and images from the location.

To work around the deadlock , on 25th Jun, I emailed Mr. Bhardwaj that we would like to start the investigation and proposed that we would send the airbag ECU to OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) laboratory for their evaluation and report. By his email dated 27th June Mr. Arvind responded saying he has ‘ hired best automobile expert and now it is time’ . To his phone message to Abdul on 2nd Jul that Mahindra is scared of independent investigations , Abdul again wrote on 2nd July , an email to Mr. Bhardwaj reiterating that he can bring on board a 3rd party expert from his side who can jointly work along with our experts for the investigation and we would await his confirmation on this. We haven’t heard back yet.

On 28th Jul Mr. Arvind wrote and email seeking ARAI certificate and certain other documents and test reports relating to the XUV 500 from Mahindra. We replied to his mail on 1st Aug attaching XUV500 ARAI type approval certificate. This is a confidential document but we shared as an exception to show transparency and our willingness for the probe which was getting delayed. We also mentioned that we have other test reports from international accredited agencies, which are proprietary and confidential in nature, but which we are willing to produce for inspection to Mr Arvind’s appointed 3rd party experts, once the process of investigation has commenced. Even our MD, Dr Pawan Goenka was in contact with Mr. Bhardwaj. After Madhav was discharged from the hospital, I visited Mr. Bhardwaj’s residence on 8th August, and enquired about progress being made by Madhav. At that meeting, I again urged Mr. Bhardwaj that we need to expedite the process of 3rd party investigation desired by him, as delay could impact the evidence.

We fully understand that Madhav’s recovery is a long drawn process and empathize about the trying times the family members are going through. Our intention of writing this mail is just to establish some facts.

regards

sanjoy



Sanjoy Gupta | Head Customer Care | Automotive Division

Mahindra Towers 3rd Floor Akurli Road , Kandivali - 400101

Email : xxx.xxx@mahindra.com

[Hayek]

Originally Posted by GTO

Sanjoy Gupta (Head Customer Care, Automotive Division - Mahindra) sends in the following email. In my opinion, Mahindra is being fair. Both parties need to sit on the table and decide future course of action

A good move. While I have never been a Mahindra customer, I have friends who work there and have observed how they treat vendors, partners, bankers and employees. I believe they are an organisation that genuinely has an ethical culture, and tries to do their best - and would encourage Arvind to work with them to ensure that a thorough independent investigation is done and we get to the bottom of what caused this issue. Unnecessary suspicion will continue this standoff and not lead to a solution. I do hope that Madhav recovers soon and am glad to note he has been discharged from the hospital. Best wishes.

[Engine_Roars]

Originally Posted by GTO

Sanjoy Gupta (Head Customer Care, Automotive Division - Mahindra) sends in the following email. In my opinion, Mahindra is being fair. Both parties need to sit on the table and decide future course of action with reference to the investigation. This will also benefit other XUV500 owners who are understandably very concerned:

Well, this email from Mahindra brings in front a lot of facts unless Mr. Arvind counter any of these. After reading this email, I for now think Mahindra is putting in a reasonable effort to settle this issue. Hope both the parties can take this forward and avoid a deadlock.

It is extremely important to reach to a fair conclusion in this particular case where there are so many emotions and other things are at stake. Wishing Madhav a very speedy recovery.