[navin]

Originally Posted by sh@rpshooter

hydra, have a question on the above.
at my home front i run 89db 4 ohms speakers with a 25watter class A (have also tried a 9W digital amp on it) with no problem in a 15 x 10 room..does this work differently in Cars ?

Car gain is a bit different from Room gain. besides in you car you have road noise etc.. so your noise floor is abit higher.

[sh@rpshooter]

Originally Posted by navin

now you got me interested. anytime someone uses a sepertate transport, DAC, etc.. it gets me started.

) its a transport - monarchy DIP-DAC for one flow..

also have a wireless HD- airport express connected to the DIP above.

yes.. simple things can be made complex and vice versa in the name of SQ

[hydrashok]

Originally Posted by sh@rpshooter

...i usually prefer upto 8" for subs and do not mind going upto 10" but above that my experience have been most budget subs start getting "Flabby bass" with the lower bass trying to play catchup with the midrange. for a low enclosure like a car should not a smaller woofer be sufficient ?..although i do understand that the damping factor in cars will be very very high..and the power required for SPLs not enough for smaller drivers

8" subs won't cut it in a car. Unless you are thinking of two of them. Even then the two 8" will about equal the moving mass of a single 12". The 2x8" will play tighter than the 12" but will not go anywhere as low as the 12" can go. You'll need a minimum of 10" for VFM bass, and for a compromise between tight bass and low freq bass. And in the car we will have a Sub, a Mid-bass, and a tweeter (in case of 2-way comps). The mid-bass takes care of 60hz and upwards (generally; or 70hz and upwards). A sub will be the only way you'll be able to get enough low-end grunt into the picture.

Originally Posted by sh@rpshooter

If I understand right, here the sub is also going to a job of actually support the mid and low bass..so the crossover point for the sub will be higher ? is it adjustable in car subs.

We generally XO our subs at 50hz or 63hz (more common) or 80hz. But this changes from setup to setup, according to taste, and according to the performance/capabilities of the other components in the setup. The XO point is adjustable (via the HU, or via the amp).

Originally Posted by sh@rpshooter

another issue is the phase difference. due to the placement configuration, the phase of the output from the sub is going to be different from the speakers (lets say at the driver position) is this configuration user changeable or fixed during installation ?

This is mostly up to you, but this is not something to sweat over much. The placement/aiming of the sub can be changed and set after trial-and-error if the sub is in a box. Some active subs let you change the phase. You can also wire it out of phase, but I don't think you'll ever need to worry about this. Sometimes (in some installs) midranges are wired out-of-phase for better results. Otherwise we don't generally mess with phase adjustments :-)

Originally Posted by sh@rpshooter

Maybe I am being too impractical with the above in expectations ?

Nope. Being fussy is simply a factor of how much serious you are about your sound. Some of us here are downright anal and really sweat even the minutest details. And we enjoy our ICE even more that way. Getting it just right, and then tweaking it a bit more is a way of life :-)

Originally Posted by sh@rpshooter

regarding speakers..JBLs except for their huge Berillium horns usually are a bit forward..but I presume should sound good with warm electronics. ? the damping factor in the car may not play a very important role as the sound is going to be mostly direct and not reflected

Uhhh... you had better listen to JBLs and decide if you like them. In some cases, cars are a nightmare (as far a reflections are concerned). Some stock locations will fire a tweeter/co-ax into the windshield ans really mess-up imaging. Most good brands perform really well when even off-axis. Some speakers ned to be on-axis, facing you to do their stuff well. This is one reason I like Hertz. They do really well even while playing off-axis. That equals lesser install hassle and lesser heartburn (to me) once the install is done. I don't know how it is with other other brands, as I haven't really tried them in an in-car environment.

Originally Posted by sh@rpshooter

Me thinks in the end my car choice is going to be based on this rather than other factors.. a NHCs ample booot should do well here !

Now you're talking! More power to you! I would personally take the Verna simply because it is a notchback (and I do like its looks), and because it lets you install a 6.5" midbass in front without hassle. No idea about how rigid its body panels are though. (A verna also takes 6x9s in stock locations in the back) .

Originally Posted by sh@rpshooter

I think I should be able to work out an upgrade plan in steps to be done over some time ..how does the below sound ?

Step 1. HU with 2/3 pre outs with compo speakers and dads old Blaupunkt coaxials (think they are 6x9 but not in the best of shapes) - 20K

I guess i need to budget in some 8/10 gauge cables

step 2. A hertz sub on a mono bloc (let me check out the 8"/10) + damping -12-15 k or a JBL all in one - 8k

Step 3. add an 2ch amp in case i am very happy else keep the option of 4ch amp with coaxials in the back open.. 10-12K

I know the amp part sounds odd to put in the end and I do understand the importance of power to a speaker..but I still have to get use to the idea of putting an additional amp in the car !!!

Slow and steady is the best way to go. It lets you boost enjoyment levels in increments, and lets you install good equipment instead of compromising for a full install on a limited budget.

Step 1 = Perfect! You really don't need 10 or 8 gauge for speakers. 14guage will be fine (even after you add an amp). You can even compromise for 16 gauge, but I'd suggest 14guage. A sub will need 8 gauge. You need to upgrade wiring only after you add an amp. For running speakers off the HU, the wires that com with your speakers will be fine. And the 6x9 co-ax will serve your bass needs fine for a while.

Step 2 = You really don't need to spend the extra money on a monobloc unless you are very finicky about your bass. You can get a decent 4-ch amp for about the same amount, and amp the front speakers and the sub. You'll need budget in power wire, RCAs and speaker wires here. Most likely a bit of vibration damping also.

Step 3: 2 ch amp only if you feel like it. Esp. as you are concerned about front sound-stage only. Maybe you can wait a bit for Stage 2 and get a really good 4-ch amp for about 80% of the cost of what you would have spent for a 4ch amp + a 2-ch amp.

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by sh@rpshooter

yes, I think I get your point....recently got into the integration of sub thing..i usually prefer upto 8" for subs and do not mind going upto 10" but above that my experience have been most budget subs start getting "Flabby bass" with the lower bass trying to play catchup with the midrange. for a low enclosure like a car should not a smaller woofer be sufficient ?..although i do understand that the damping factor in cars will be very very high..and the power required for SPLs not enough for smaller drivers

I did not understand the part about the damping factor being high in cars. Anyway, whether a 8" driver is sufficient or not will depend on your listening tastes. I find the bass from most 8" subs adequate, especially if the sub in concern is planted in a hatchback. In sedans, there is a loss in bass because sometimes it is further away, and also because there is a loss of transmission due to the trunk being sealed off from the cabin. The advantage of using a larger driver, as you would know, would be the ability to play the same amount of bass with lower and hence more linear excursion. As for the delay in the subs arrival wrt to the other drivers, the biggest culprit is the distance that the bass has to traverse since it is placed further away. This is more pronounced than the effect of the sub having a poor impulse response time, or being sluggish. This can easily be corrected with head units or processors having a delay adjustment feature.

Originally Posted by sh@rpshooter

If I understand right, here the sub is also going to a job of actually support the mid and low bass..so the crossover point for the sub will be higher ? is it adjustable in car subs.

To avoid the sub from sounding directional, it's a good idea to stay at or under 80 Hz cut-off. This also would depend on how low your fronts are willing to go. With some mighty fronts, you could have the sub play under and upto 50Hz. Most amps allow a continuously adjustable cut-off frequency selector.

Originally Posted by sh@rpshooter

another issue is the phase difference. due to the placement configuration, the phase of the output from the sub is going to be different from the speakers (lets say at the driver position) is this configuration user changeable or fixed during installation ?

Good head units allow 0 and 180@ phase options. High-end amps allow you to set the phase correction variably from 0 to 180.

[sh@rpshooter]

this forum ROCKS

Thanks a lot Bass&Trouble, hydrashok ,navin,vid6639 ( in alphabetical order )

I dont think i have got so much info with such a short interaction.. and its all due to your attitude + knowledge.

will pop in later to update on the system and will definitely meet you in other thread(s) till then.

[sh@rpshooter]

Correction to the above the 2nd statement should read as

I dont think i COULD have got so much info with such a short interaction.. and its all due to your attitude + knowledge.

thanks again

[navin]

Originally Posted by sh@rpshooter

this forum ROCKS

Thanks a lot Bass&Trouble, hydrashok ,navin,vid6639 ( in alphabetical order )

FYI, we have a limit of 2 smileys per post.

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by hydrashok

Uhhh... you had better listen to JBLs and decide if you like them. In some cases, cars are a nightmare (as far a reflections are concerned). Some stock locations will fire a tweeter/co-ax into the windshield ans really mess-up imaging. Most good brands perform really well when even off-axis. Some speakers ned to be on-axis, facing you to do their stuff well. This is one reason I like Hertz. They do really well even while playing off-axis. That equals lesser install hassle and lesser heartburn (to me) once the install is done. I don't know how it is with other other brands, as I haven't really tried them in an in-car environment.

I just noticed this part of your post. Does it in any way imply that JBLs or some of them atleast, have poor off-axis response?

[Sam Kapasi]

By the way, I don't want to join the growing flock of advice givers. BUT before everyone feels really stupid later on, let me inform you that it looks to me like a lot of us could learn about hi-fidelity sound from sh@rpshooter.

Please see the quality of his posts and the depth of his knowledge before you jump in with fancy words that you have learned only recently. No, I do not know him (yet), but I do realise that he doesn't need us to fire out things he knows better than we do.

Though well worded and long, his enquiry was basic and very clear. And yet, we have 2 pages of people falling over themselves trying to explain to an old horse what good quality sound is. To someone who (clearly) has studio experience and is old enough to know his (very good)music and his preferred frequencies and their nuances.

I do not point this out to any one person in particular. I am making a sweeping broad statement and am not referring to any particular post at all. But guys, come ON!! Atleast read the original post and understand the experience level of a guy before the advice is doled out.

[Vid6639]

Sam, I guess everyone (including me) was just trying to be helpful. I think all of knew that sharpshooter is much more knowledgable than most of us here.

He had mentioned he was new to car audio hence guess we all jumped in.

Even then I would say the discussions we had with him after replying to his posts were very knowledgable to us amateurs.

If we hadn't jumped in we would have missed out on a lot. I had no idea on quite a few things and these 2 pages helped clear a lot of stuff.

I guess Sam your right and the misunderstanding was giving advice and suggesting.

We can all suggest but giving advice is another thing.

Thanks Sam and cheers for bringing it up.

[hydrashok]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

I just noticed this part of your post. Does it in any way imply that JBLs or some of them atleast, have poor off-axis response?

No,no,no! Absolutely not! I should have put a carriage return after the first sentence. I simply meant that sh@rpshooter should listen to the JBLs and see if they are too bright for his taste before he goes for them. He'd asked about whether they would sound different when coupled "with warm electronics". I have no idea whether that would be so.

The rest of the quoted part were just general statements, except what I said about Hertz, which was specific.

Originally Posted by vid6639

Sam, I guess everyone (including me) was just trying to be helpful. I think all of knew that sharpshooter is much more knowledgable than most of us here.

He had mentioned he was new to car audio hence guess we all jumped in.

Ditto here

[Sam Kapasi]

You boys are sweet. Keep up the good work. Well done. Soon Navin and I will be jobless.

[sh@rpshooter]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

By the way, I don't want to join the growing flock of advice givers. BUT before everyone feels really stupid later on, let me inform you that it looks to me like a lot of us could learn about hi-fidelity sound from sh@rpshooter.

Sam, you give me way too much credit....
Have by now realised how different a car setup can be..need to adjust some expectations from it too !

..and advice/suggestions are always welcome..have been soaking up a lot of knowledge in this thread and a lot of it from you and navin

Originally Posted by navin

FYI, we have a limit of 2 smileys per post.

navin, your point on Smileys is acknowledged..

[navin]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

You boys are sweet. Keep up the good work. Well done. Soon Navin and I will be jobless.

Sam I already am. I was jobless BEFORE this thread got started.

[navin]

Originally Posted by sh@rpshooter

Sam, you give me way too much credit......

No he does not! I can second that. I tried to hint (DAC, Transport) but it was overlooked! :-)

Welcome to ICE, SS.