[SUVolens]

Originally Posted by nvldvr

Any updates on your Endeavour's repairs?

Would you mind sharing the cost of repairs / replacement of damaged parts?

Hi!

Extremely sorry about the late response. Haven't had time lately to check back here.
Happily, my Endy was repaired good as new by the dealer (Riddhi Ford, on Mathura Road, Delhi). Not before I had to escalate matters higher up, but that's another story. All damaged portions were completely replaced. List of major replacements:

1. Front Bumper (including fog lamp)
2. Right Headlamp and HL washer
3. RH fender
4. RH tie-rod
5. RH front alloy
6. Associated wheel, bumper and fender parts

The bill came to Rs.1.36 lacs almost and my zero-dep cover took care of most of it bar 6k that I had to pay up front.
I've made two large-ish trips since the repair and am happy to report that there are no adverse effects from the accident. The truck continues to behave just like new and even performed admirably well during a little adventurous river-crossing in Uttarakhand.
My takeaway from the experience:

1. The Endeavour continues to be an extremely rugged vehicle, not to be easily distressed by smaller vehicles with suicidal tendencies.
2. Ford India is really trying hard to remedy the older perception of being laid back and ineffective. They're not nearly there yet, but should get there in some time.
3. Always check that your insurance stays zero-dep on this mammoth. It is worth every penny when the time for reckoning comes. Also, check for something called NCB protection. My policy had the clause and I wasn't aware of it!

I will try and share some photos/videos of my adventures with Surus soon.

Cheers!

[roby_dk]

Hello!

I am confused between Hexa XTA and Ford 2.2 AT Trend model.

Is it advisable to go for Trend AT (base) vs XTA (Top end). I have read both Hexa and Endeavour reviews sincerely but not able to make up my mind.

[niv26]

Originally Posted by roby_dk

Hello!

I am confused between Hexa XTA and Ford 2.2 AT Trend model.

Is it advisable to go for Trend AT (base) vs XTA (Top end). I have read both Hexa and Endeavour reviews sincerely but not able to make up my mind.

I was in same dilemma earlier, and even booked Crysta-AT, but finally bought 2.2AT Trend model. Though it is base model, it has got most of the stuff you need and IMHO, this is best of the lot, no confusion here.

[lollapalooza]

I have put my decision to buy the car on hold for the time being due to the GST. Prima facie it seems to me that under the GST the tax rate could be lower by a few percentage points.

Currently for SUVs there is 30% excise plus 4% infrastructure cess and 13.5% VAT (in Maharashtra). This adds up to to over 50% tax. Whereas under the GST the tax will be 28% (the highest slab) plus a max of 15% cess (could be lower also) which was announced yesterday which totals to max of 43% or 47% depending on whether the cess is multiplicative or additive. So a lower tax burden irrespective.

Even a 3ppt lower tax on this car will mean a saving of Rs1 lakh which is a meaningful amount. So on hold till I get clarity. If there is indeed tax saving then will buy after 1st July which is the date for GST.

If anybody has any details or if I have missed anything please share...

[roby_dk]

Originally Posted by lollapalooza

I have put my decision to buy the car on hold for the time being due to the GST. Prima facie it seems to me that under the GST the tax rate could be lower by a few percentage points.

Currently for SUVs there is 30% excise plus 4% infrastructure cess and 13.5% VAT (in Maharashtra). This adds up to to over 50% tax. Whereas under the GST the tax will be 28% (the highest slab) plus a max of 15% cess (could be lower also) which was announced yesterday which totals to max of 43% or 47% depending on whether the cess is multiplicative or additive. So a lower tax burden irrespective.

Even a 3ppt lower tax on this car will mean a saving of Rs1 lakh which is a meaningful amount. So on hold till I get clarity. If there is indeed tax saving then will buy after 1st July which is the date for GST.

If anybody has any details or if I have missed anything please share...

That is great I will also wait till July. 1 lakh is a big amount and waiting for 3-4 months is not a bad idea.

But one more thing hope the manufacturers will not increase prices at the same time.

[Czarcarsm]

Why I ended up with Ford Endeavour

I would like to share my car selection process here. Hopefully any potential buyers might find this useful.

I had been in the market for a good 7-seater for over a year. It all started with my increasingly regular drive from Bangalore to Kochi and back, with my rather large family. Although my initial search started in the sub 10 lac segment, I soon realized that if I need a proper, ground up designed, 7-seater, I need to start with the Innova Crysta. I had been eyeing this for a long time as it met several of my key requirements. But I was not impressed after the test drive and felt that ‘value for money’ factor missing. It is basically an efficient people mover. So, I decided to explore the 25+ lac segment. I also wanted an automatic, as I felt there is no use saving a few lacs when young and wear out my healthy bone joints, only to spend those savings for medical recovery later in life.

As the quest heated up, I soon discovered that in the 25+ lac segment, apart from Fortuner and Endeavour, there are a few other launches expected this year. These include the screaming quick Skoda Kodiaq (187 hp on a 1.7 ton body !), the brilliant and proven Mitsubishi Pajero Sport, and a very capable Isuzu MU-X etc. Some very competent vehicles. Now this led to some serious confusion, which one gives peace of mind, which one is more comfortable, which one offers the best VFM, and so on.

The below chart shows some of the key parameters of all the 7-seater vehicles I considered, in the price bracket of interest.



Note: 1. For future launch models, much of the data collected were from markets they already serve, like Australia, Europe, Thailand etc. I even did a google translate from Czech to get Skoda Kodiaq details! 2. Skoda’s catalog kerb weight had a 75 kg adult considered. Final weight adjusted hence. 3. I chose not to consider some upcoming launch vehicles such as updated Chevy Trailblazer and updated SsangYong Rexton. Chevy has done some irreparable damage to their brand in India. SsangYong is still an unknown brand for many Indians. But I am sure it is in good hands though.

Toyota Fortuner:
The heart-throb of the masses. Sells like pan cakes and an extremely capable off roader. Commands premium pricing even at resale but hampered by poor feature list and comparatively harsher ride quality. Compromised boot space for good 2nd and 3rd row leg room.



Ford Endeavour:
Love the Electric steering. In India, driving at 100-120 kmph on NH, one needs to weave through slow moving truck traffic that is occupying all lanes. The lighter EPAS definitely helps here. In Europe & US with clear straight high speed lanes, EPAS may not offer the stiffness, but I would love the EPAS on our NH. Feature rich and offers great ride comfort. Also has the largest boot space in the group.
At 2.5 tons, it is also the heaviest of the lot. Could easily be the worst fuel guzzler in the group. Offers a sunroof which I am not sure if it is a great idea for India. Ingress into 3rd row is a major pain. No keyless access or push button start for this price.



Isuzu MU-X LS-T:
Expected launch by Q2,2017. Already well received in currently serving markets. Based on D-cross and Chevy Trailblazer. Shares lot of design cues and parts with Trailblazer. Pricing will be key to success. Expected at around 27 lacs for top variant. But feature list is poor.



Skoda Kodiaq:
From a performance stand point this thing is a sling shot. Excellent set of features and a very European styling. Offered in 5 seater and 7 seater variants. Originally intended as a strong competitor for Santa Fe, but appears to be a makeshift 7 seater without length increase. Not as long as the Fortuner or Endeavour, and along with a sloping rear roof, the 7-seat variant is going to have compromised leg space in 2nd / 3rd rows. Being a Skoda it is going to be very price point sensitive at 30 lacs projected price.



Mitsubishi Pajero Sport Exceed:
Possibly the most awaited of the upcoming releases. Pajeros are known for its extreme durability and off road capability. In a recent Australian head to head off-roading comparison, this trounced the new Fortuner. It also has a good set of features such as Apple CarPlay/AA, Birds Eye View camera etc. It has the shortest turning radius at 5.6 m. Comes with an 8-speed automatic but the peak torque is at a higher rpm. So, I am thinking a couple of these gears will be at the lower end. At a mere 131 liters, it has the lowest boot space. You would almost need a full time roof carrier.



All these stallions look handsome and has stellar reputation. Reminds me of the famous chariot race scene in the movie ‘Benhur’. Every horse a thorough-bred. How to choose the best of the lot? Run a roman style chariot race, or go with my heart and pick one, or use some good old 6-sigma tricks.

I decided to use some old tricks used by business managers and 6-sigma champions, who face exactly this type of dilemma. Given a set of options, which one is the best of the lot. What makes it the best etc.

I used two simple methods. One is called the Trade-off Matrix (TOM), the other is the Decision Matrix (DM). TOM helps me decide my vehicle requirements, DM tells me which vehicle is the best. I need to do TOM first to do a successful DM.

Trade-off Matrix:
TOM helps you decide which requirements are most important to you. For example, you may want a car with high reliability, low cost and good service network. These individual requirements are called ‘Criteria’ in TOM. I have listed below, the set of criteria that are important to me. Once I list the criteria I want, I then do a trade-off amongst them to find their order of importance. For example, I might want high reliability more than good service network. But is good service network more important than good ride quality? This is where TOM helps, to get the criteria in a descending order of importance.
Here is the list of 8 criteria or requirements that I chose, along with detailed explanation of what each meant to me.
1. Upfront cost: Total on-road price including accessories and insurance. Low up front cost preferred.
2. Maintenance cost: Regular maintenance cost excluding accident repair. Low maintenance cost preferred.
3. Reliability: How often does the vehicle have breakdowns. Cost of such unscheduled repairs. High reliability preferred.
4. Durability: How long does the vehicle last. I want a minimum of 7 yrs/130k Kms of good performance, without any noticeable degradation. Long durability preferred.
5. Resale value: Percentage price depreciation after 7 yrs of ownership. This is typically a function of reliability and durability, but brand perception matters big time in India. Hyundai is a good example. Even with lesser reliability and durability than Toyota, it still has a higher market share and good resale value. It’s like resale value has a life of its own. High resale value preferred.
6. Service network: Presence of Pan India service network. More the network, the better.
7. Customer care quality: Quality of OEM’s response to issues. Fast and good quality response preferred. Don’t put the blame on the user. Be honest and serve the customer best.
8. Features: BT, CarPlay/AA, Hands free options, Birds Eye View camera etc., along with good dealer options. High feature list preferred. This is my super yacht, I want good feature list.

I am sure I could add a few more criteria. But I chose to ignore some, as listed below.

Criteria not considered in trade-off
1. Ride comfort: This criterion is a bit subjective to evaluate. Something I can’t put a definite value on, unless I use accelerometers and instrumented crash dummies. Else it is mostly based on individual feel. But I did test drive several 7-seaters from Ertiga, Mobilio all the way to Fortuner and Endeavour. Felt the Endeavour as the most pleasing in ride.
2. Mileage: At this price point, a difference between 10 kmpl vs 12 kmpl is insignificant to the wallet. Also, individual driving style greatly affects mileage.
3. Accident repair cost: This will be covered by insurance. One thing noticed is that, for top end models of Endeavour and Fortuner, Endeavour 3.2 AT was cheaper by Rs15k as checked with policy bazaar. Zero dep, NCB protection and Engine protection insurance considered as default option.
4. Leg room/head room: as not much data available for future launch models. But with available data and some bit of extrapolation shows, Ford, Toyota and probably Isuzu have the highest room
5. Off-road capability: Although these are all capable 4x4’s, off-road capability is a good to have feature, not a deciding factor for me. I might off-road (very carefully) for a grand total of 30-40 kms in its entire life. I live in a city and commute on highways.

Here is how the final TOM looks like once completed. But for starters, you list all the criteria in rows and as well as at the top in columns. Then you go down column 1, trading off its importance over rest of the criteria placed in each row. If the criterion in the column is more important over the criterion in a row, you put ‘1’. If it is less important, then you put a ‘0’. Repeat this across rest of the columns. Then at the very bottom, you add the zeros and ones. See the total value in yellow cells. The column with the highest total gets the highest importance. The value in yellow represent the importance for each criterion



You can see that, once I completed the TOM, I found that, reliability was the most important criteria with a value of 7. Next was durability with a 5. Service network was the least with a 1. It is not that upfront cost and service network are unimportant, it is just that among the given criteria, those had the lowest importance. But those are still important, hence they made it to the final selection criteria list.
Basically, I am willing to pay a lac or two more upfront, if it pays me back in low maintenance, high reliability, durability, good list of features and resale.

Decision Matrix:
Now armed with the order of importance for each criterion, I developed the DM. This is the key to final selection of the vehicle. What you do is list the above criteria from TOM in the descending order of importance and see how each vehicle performs in those criteria.
In the DM below, the listed criteria from TOM are put in rows with the ‘Importance Value’ next to it shown in yellow. Each vehicle is listed at the top of the columns. They are then assigned a ‘raw score’ or 0 to 4 on how well they meet each of the criteria.
Raw scores are 0 = low, 2 = medium, 4 = high, representing chancing of meeting each criterion. This value assignment is based on field data, experience etc. The raw score is then multiplied with the ‘importance value’, to arrive at the final ‘weighted score’ for each vehicle.



Total scores are the added up at the very bottom for each vehicle.
Ford Endeavour 3.2 Titanium scores the highest with 88 points. Next is 2017 Pajero Sport Exceed with 82. Third is Toyota Fortuner 4x4 AT. See the comments column for details on why a certain raw score was assigned for each vehicle.

Toyota surprisingly ends up behind Pajero, but after a detailed look, this becomes pretty obvious.
1. Toyota’s strength is in Reliability and Durability. Pajero too does very well here, with Ford not too far behind these days. These are the two highest scoring criteria. I once owned a Ford for 10yrs and 165k miles (264k kms) in North America. For 80% use on NH in India, I expect Endeavour to have a durability of good 7 yrs/130k kms.
2. Toyota has comparatively higher periodic maintenance cost (10k kms cost) and higher upfront cost stacked up against it.
3. Finally, this is my palace on wheels. I want good set of features for this kind of money. The most expensive Fortuner has nearly identical set of features as the cheapest of the lot, Isuzu MU-X. So, it gets a raw score of ‘0’ for features. This is an area where Pajero and Endeavour got a significant edge over Fortuner.

Conclusion:
The criteria selected, although is tailored for my requirements, I would think it matches what most users want. Even outside of the above DM, Pajero is an extremely capably vehicle but will find it tough going against the perception battle with Toyota. How much ever argument one makes for Skoda, it will be tough to sell a 30 lac Skoda badge in India.
Best wishes to all these capable vehicles. But as for me and my family we have chosen the Endeavour.

[Turbanator]

TOM helps you decide which requirements are most important to you

That's some nice work. I don't know if others will agree but this in itself deserves a thread on its own. You have great analytical skill set

[sunishsamuel]

Originally Posted by Czarcarsm

Conclusion:
The criteria selected, although is tailored for my requirements, I would think it matches what most users want. Even outside of the above DM, Pajero is an extremely capably vehicle but will find it tough going against the perception battle with Toyota. How much ever argument one makes for Skoda, it will be tough to sell a 30 lac Skoda badge in India.
Best wishes to all these capable vehicles. But as for me and my family we have chosen the Endeavour.

Good to hear and great analysis. Which color did you chose? Wishing you happy miles with the Ford.

[torquing_points]

Originally Posted by roby_dk

Hello!

I am confused between Hexa XTA and Ford 2.2 AT Trend model.

Is it advisable to go for Trend AT (base) vs XTA (Top end). I have read both Hexa and Endeavour reviews sincerely but not able to make up my mind.

I was also confused but bought trend. I was a storme owner before this.

- tata cares More about their Hexa customers. Expect higher quality care. Even in my storme I was happier with the way that the company treated me compared to being an endeavour owner.
- badge value - very poor for tata and 'what will they say' factor is strongly in favor of endeavour
- longevity - the endeavour which is based on a ranger is a tried and tested beast. Hexa is pretty new. It also has too many electronics which would cause problems mid-life. From a longevity perspective pick the endy
- driving position -- hands down winner is the Hexa. The 'command seating' really is a class apart. You are in total control with beautiful visibility everywhere.
- ride comfort -- again hands down winner is hexa.
- people carrier - the Hexa last row is more comfortable than the endy
- luxury feel -- while the Hexa is also pretty good, the endy has best in class interiors
- sound system -- SYNC 2 absolutely *SUCKS*. Sound quality is better in endy but interface is better in tata as compared to s2. S3 is better but you'll have to spend way more on a titanium.
- 7 airbags on the tata
-nvh is way better on the endy
- the xta is a great and sporty driving experience. The 2.2 trend is sluggish. Not that this should matter in a 2 Ton SUV.

But ultimately it only boils down t two things.

- can you own a tata? Does the brand excite you? I would love to own a Tata beast again. Not everyone would.
- how long do you want to keep it and do you want a tried and tested car or a new launch with a plethora of features with potential niggles?


Ultimately it's up to personal preference. Ive not been happy with my sub standard experience with ford trend and had a fab experience with the storme, We need to buy another vehicle in the family. We are not considering the endy Anymore. Only options are Hexa and crysta. I'm probably going to get the Hexa and hand my endy down.

But if you're looking for longevity and brand value then the cars to buy are the crysta and the endy.

[sunishsamuel]

Found this video on youtube, a clearer version of the Bangalore event. Wondering where was the event held, would love to visit and go through those terrains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ5ZJ1HQJFE

The cars seem to perform well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6w0GzHGB4Y

[anumod]

Originally Posted by roby_dk

Hello!

I am confused between Hexa XTA and Ford 2.2 AT Trend model.

Is it advisable to go for Trend AT (base) vs XTA (Top end). I have read both Hexa and Endeavour reviews sincerely but not able to make up my mind.

I was also in the same dilemma (I had the booking of XT 4X4), but because of the hefty discount which I got on Endy, I went with Endy. I got 26.3 On-road in Hyderabad for 2.2 MT 4X4. My requirement was, I wanted a manual. So with that price point I was completely sold off on that. But with the current pricing, I think Hexa XTA makes sense, because of the below reasons
1. 6 Airbags
2. The driveabilitiy of Hexa automatic is very good.
3. The ride is superior to Endy.

On the other side, in Endy, you get the below advantages
1. Interior quality is more superior
2. Sound Quality is Excellent
3. Extra boot space.
4. Features like noise cancellations, electronic Boot release, Burglar Alarm (with motion detector), Better reverse camera, Instrument cluster, more storage areas, etc ..

But all these you need to shell around 12+ Lakhs in Hyderabad. I feel with that price difference, Hexa will be value for money ..

[roby_dk]

Originally Posted by torquing_points

I was also confused but bought trend. I was a storme owner before this.

Being a proud Tata owner I do not have any problem with the brand. I am a happy customer of Tata and never faced any major issues with my Safari Dicor.
Badge value is something I am looking for now. Safari definitely had some wow factor that is the reason I never checked any other options while buying Safari.
Like various other members it was a dream car for me. But now after driving it >138k in past years I need a comfortable yet butch looking AT SUV similar to Safari.

Originally Posted by torquing_points

- can you own a tata? Does the brand excite you? I would love to own a Tata beast again. Not everyone would.

As I already mentioned I do not have any problem with Tata. I am concerned about looks of Hexa which are not butch as Safari or Endeavour. As many pointed out it is far better than Aria but still have some MUV'ish style.

Originally Posted by torquing_points

- how long do you want to keep it and do you want a tried and tested car or a new launch with a plethora of features with potential niggles?

I will be definitely keeping it for a longer period minimum 7 years.

Originally Posted by torquing_points

Ive not been happy with my sub standard experience with ford trend and had a fab experience with the storme,

Can you elaborate more on this? I didn't get in what perspective your experience was bitter as Endeavour is the most expensive SUV in their lineup.

Originally Posted by torquing_points

But if you're looking for longevity and brand value then the cars to buy are the crysta and the endy.

Sorry a big no for Crysta - a luxurious cab. It is a sheer wastage to put money in Crysta and no one in my family likes it either.
If Tata would have rolled out AT in Safari I would have picked it up without a second thought.

Originally Posted by anumod

I was also in the same dilemma (I had the booking of XT 4X4), but because of the hefty discount which I got on Endy, I went with Endy. I got 26.3 On-road in Hyderabad for 2.2 MT 4X4. My requirement was, I wanted a manual. So with that price point I was completely sold off on that. But with the current pricing, I think Hexa XTA makes sense,

But all these you need to shell around 12+ Lakhs in Hyderabad. I feel with that price difference, Hexa will be value for money ..

I checked the on-road price difference in delhi on Carwale app.
Hexa XTA - 20.9 L + 1L Sunroof = 22L
Endeavour 2.2 Trend AT - 28.3 L

Hence it is roughly 6-7 lakhs if the prices mentioned above are correct.

[anumod]

Originally Posted by roby_dk

I checked the on-road price difference in delhi on Carwale app.
Hexa XTA - 20.9 L + 1L Sunroof = 22L
Endeavour 2.2 Trend AT - 28.3 L

Hence it is roughly 6-7 lakhs if the prices mentioned above are correct.

The Endy 2017 prices for 2.2 Trend AT hasn't yet been announced, the current prices which are there in the sites are the 2016 year ending discounted price. (In Hyderabad 2.2 AT prices are still being shown as 24.28 Ex-Showroom, where as 2.2 MT 4X4 price is at 27.16. Ideally these two should be almost same. The discounted price for MT 4X4 was also 24.28) . As per the dealers, the 2017 price for the Trend 2.2 AT will come in only April.

[torquing_points]

Originally Posted by roby_dk

Badge value is something I am looking for now. Safari definitely had some wow factor that is the reason I never checked any other options while buying Safari.

Like various other members it was a dream car for me. But now after driving it >138k in past years I need a comfortable yet butch looking AT SUV similar to Safari.







As I already mentioned I do not have any problem with Tata. I am concerned about looks of Hexa which are not butch as Safari or Endeavour. As many pointed out it is far better than Aria but still have some MUV'ish style.







Can you elaborate more on this? I didn't get in what perspective your experience was bitter as Endeavour is the most expensive SUV in their lineup.

If you want badge value and also butch looks, there's no option really. It's the ford.

With regards to experience -- it's been 3 months since I bought the car. I've raised 2 complaints on fairly serious matters. Both were not resolved by the company, and Ford India really took a Skoda like hands off approach. Usually, when I send them 3-4 polite reminders to reply on this case, I get a non-committal reply. If I escalate (politely) to a senior management member, they simply forward my email to the 'customer care' department.

This is exactly how Skoda's problems in India started. I still remember our horrible experience with the superb. Contrast this with tata. If I ever had any issues, I never even had to escalate it to the company. And if I ever did, they would immediately get resolved.

That said, these experiences are very personal in nature - I tend to demand fulfillment of commitments in transactions, and expect the company to stand behind the promises made by their dealers. I see the stand the company takes as a signal of their customer orientation. It may not bother you if your dealer is better. But do walk in to a tata and see how they treat potential Hexa customers as compared to how ford treats potential endy customers.

Whatever you do, do not buy the Trend until thy update it to sync 3 which they hopefully will soon.

Also do drive the Hexa and the endy back to back to realize how easy it is to drive the Hexa (or storme) as compared to the endy.

But - in summary- if you're looking for a butch SUV with moderate-high badge value, all you have is the pajero, the endy and the Isuzu. Out of these, none really stand out for company reputation.

[MAS]

Did any one get to watch this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW3Q2kJD1Ac