[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by deepakv

Unable to source the Kenwood M846 anywhere :( Snapdeal's mouth watering price of 4.4k is also sold out since many days. How is the Blaupunkt EMA 455 for 5.5k?

Check with Ramie-paaji, he might be able to get you one.

In case there is a genuine supply shortage of the Kenwood amp, the Blau would be a good alternative. It has high level inputs too, like the 846. Blau amps are usually sweet sounding. See if you can get a demo somewhere before you buy.

[jeeva]

I've been looking at the Ground Zero GZUC 650SQ series components for the Fiesta. I have been a JBL/Focal regular, and I have never heard the 650 SQ series perform. What should I expect out of them? (I know its supposed to be heard, but I don't think I have an opportunity to.) Does this stuff sound too bright?
Yeah, they will be powered by a JBL GT5-A604, with the sub.

Searched the thread and I see umpteen mentions of Ground Zero subs and amps, but nowhere a mention of comps. (Correct me if I am wrong, though)
I am surprised, I mean are these avoidable by any chance?

Thanks.

[gkannan]

GT5-A604 with SNR ratio of 85db and 60 watt RMS will be too weak for the GZUC 650SQ. I have heard these components and they need a powerful amp to shine.
They sound brilliant, you should install the tweeters at 45 degrees a little high on the A Panel.
You can look at Focal FPS 4160 to go with the ground zero components.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by jeeva

... (I know its supposed to be heard, but I don't think I have an opportunity to.) ...

There is no substitute for auditioning - only your ears (and what is in between) are the best judge. 'Bright' for one person is not necessarily bright for another.

Originally Posted by gkannan

... they need a powerful amp to shine.
They sound brilliant, you should install the tweeters at 45 degrees a little high on the A Panel. ...

You sound like an enthusiastic sales person at a dealer!
* Does "brilliant" mean "bright"? Unusual term!
* What is "A Panel"? A Pillar cladding?
* Why on the "A Panel"? Why not on the 'sail panel' or inside the ORVM mount, or on the door pad near the dash level and hinge side?
* 45 degrees from which plane?
* How high on the "A Panel"? What will happen if it is at the base of the pillar cladding?

[gkannan]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

There is no substitute for auditioning - only your ears (and what is in between) are the best judge. 'Bright' for one person is not necessarily bright for another.

You sound like an enthusiastic sales person at a dealer!
* Does "brilliant" mean "bright"? Unusual term!
* What is "A Panel"? A Pillar cladding?
* Why on the "A Panel"? Why not on the 'sail panel' or inside the ORVM mount, or on the door pad near the dash level and hinge side?
* 45 degrees from which plane?
* How high on the "A Panel"? What will happen if it is at the base of the pillar cladding?

Brilliant means well detailed. It is a common term in audio circles. I am not just talking about tweeters here but the components put together. 45 degrees off axis with respect to the drivers seat. A Panel is A Pillar.
A Pillar offers advantage of both depth and height on the dash, in a 2-way this helps to physically raise and deepen the soundstage with better imaging as most of the time the tweeters are crossed at 3 khz and above. I would also recommend a attenuation of atleast 3db as the midbass and tweeters are further apart.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by gkannan

Brilliant means well detailed. It is a common term in audio circles. ...

Is it? Hmmm! Never heard anyone using this word in audio circles. The only time I heard it being used (also the word 'scintillating') it was used in the context of 'brightness'.

Originally Posted by gkannan

... I am not just talking about tweeters here but the components put together. 45 degrees off axis with respect to the drivers seat. ...

Sorry buddy, you have lost me here. You mean both the tweeters and the mid-bass (axis) at 45 degrees from the driver seat? The mid-bass doesn't matter in this equation.

Perhaps you are using rough angles, since mounted on the A pillar, the tweeter axis will have to point at the other tweeter to get 45 degrees off axis for driver (resp. passenger) - difficult to achieve unless one makes a custom pod. Maybe looking at a printout of the plan of a car will help you visualize? One usually points it at the 'other' head rest, which gives approx. 30 degrees - enough for 'bright' tweeters. OTOH, mounting on the sail panel increases the off-axis angle, and door pad location even more so.

Originally Posted by gkannan

... A Pillar offers advantage of both depth and height on the dash, in a 2-way this helps to physically raise and deepen the soundstage with better imaging as most of the time the tweeters are crossed at 3 khz and above. I would also recommend a attenuation of atleast 3db as the midbass and tweeters are further apart.

Nice expressions, but ...

* Larger mounting location depth will serve to attenuate the signal level at the ear, effectively reducing intensity of high frequencies. This wouldn't result in the sound-stage appearing higher or farther from the driver

* Height of the tweeter from the dash has nothing to do with height of the image (sound-stage). Perhaps you are looking at it very empirically - it doesn't work the way you see it because of the extreme complexity of image / sound-stage creation reckoning with multiple reflections from the surfaces inside the car

* So what really happens to the image due to the fact that "tweeters are crossed at 3KHz and above"? One would intuitively think that if crossed lower, say 2KHz, more of the midbass will come out through the tweeter hence making the image appear higher (more intensity and appearing at a higher location). Quite the opposite of what you are proposing.

* One can't really do anything to the mid-bass position, since usually there is only one location - good or bad. Unless one does some nifty FG work if one is sure it works better at another location like foot well or dash or wherever

* And, why should one attenuate the tweeters (I assume you meant tweeters) by "at least" 3dB? What will that affect and result in?

[gkannan]

Please follow my ICE build log which is yet under moderation. It will answer all the apprehensions you have and the queries you have raised in your post.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by gkannan

... It will answer all the apprehensions you have and the queries you have raised in your post.

a. I don't have any "apprehensions", and

b. The answer to the "queries" are not there in that thread. That is just about what was done. My questions were about "why" which would be in your thinking that you unable to express. Try.

[salunkhe.vizz]

Hi Team,

I recently bought a used Civic AT with an ICE'ed up set up of double challenger woofers connected to mono Amps + pioneer dvd touchscreen HU. After a month of usage, the system suddenly started cutting the output off at times.

I went through the Directory and approached one of the mentioned places (fellow T-BHP member), who diagnosed it as voltage being cut off by the system due to faulty wiring.

He has seen the whole setup and recommended upgraded wiring with damping as well new enclosures (see his quotes below).

My question to guru's is :

1. Can I live with just upgrading the wiring ? (I am not a big audiophile and while I enjoy music, I never need to blast it so much that the whole car vibrates)

2. Are below quotes reasonable ?

OPTION I (CCA)
4AWG CCA Power/Ground cable 12mtr - Rs.3100/-
16AWG Speakon CCA Wring 18mtr - Rs.2200/-
3 x CCA RCA Cables - 1350/-
Remote+ wire (8mtr) - Rs.480/-
Fuse - Rs.750/-
Spacer Rings with water guard - Rs.1600
Rezomat Acoustic Damping 32sq.ft- Rs.7500/-
2.25cu.ft Ported 38hz Enclosure 18mm MDF - Rs.4200/-
Amp mounting board - Rs.1250/-
Labour Installation Tuning - Rs.3500/-
TOTAL: 25,930

Option II (OFC)
4AWG OFC Power/Ground cable 12mtr - Rs.5560/-
StreetWires 14AWG Speakon OFC Wring 18mtr - Rs.4800/-
3 x MX OFC RCA Cables - 2850/-
Remote+ wire (8mtr) - Rs.480/-
Fuse - Rs.750/-
Spacer Rings with water guard - Rs.1600
Rezomat Acoustic Damping 32sq.ft- Rs.7500/-
2.25cu.ft Ported 38hz Enclosure 18mm MDF - Rs.4200/-
Amp mounting board - Rs.1250/-
Labour Installation Tuning - Rs.3500/-
TOTAL: 32,490

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by salunkhe.vizz

... set up of double challenger woofers connected to mono Amps + pioneer dvd touchscreen HU. ...

What is the rest of the ICE system? Where did you buy it from? What the makes and models of the amps?

Originally Posted by salunkhe.vizz

... After a month of usage, the system suddenly started cutting the output off at times. ...

Do the other speakers also cut off, or only the subwoofer? How loud were you hearing music at the time of cut off?

Originally Posted by salunkhe.vizz

... I went through the Directory and approached one of the mentioned places (fellow T-BHP member), who diagnosed it as voltage being cut off by the system due to faulty wiring. ...

Who?

Originally Posted by salunkhe.vizz

... 1. Can I live with just upgrading the wiring ? (I am not a big audiophile and while I enjoy music, I never need to blast it so much that the whole car vibrates) ...

Yes, if that is really the problem. The others are for a. less noise and rattles, and b. better sound. One can also make do with teflon-coated domestic wiring cables like Finolex, Havell's etc., which will cost you a fraction. But, again, IF the wiring is the problem. To me it doesn't sound like that, sorry to say.

The problem could be, possibly, that the amplifier is overheating and cutting off. This is a temporary cut off, and as soon as the amplifier cools off, the music resumes. If that is so, you should get the amp checked from the manufacturer's service center.

Originally Posted by salunkhe.vizz

... 2. Are below quotes reasonable ? ...

Well, one can't comment without knowing why the installer would recommend them.

[salunkhe.vizz]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Well, one can't comment without knowing why the installer would recommend them.

What is the rest of the ICE system? Where did you buy it from? What the makes and models of the amps?

I got a used car with all of these as part of the car. I am not a good audio-techie, so wont be able to elaborate but can send pics.

Do the other speakers also cut off, or only the subwoofer? How loud were you hearing music at the time of cut off?

The entire system cuts off with a BEEP sound that comes out from the back.

Who ?

Ramie-Paaji

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by salunkhe.vizz

... The entire system cuts off with a BEEP sound that comes out from the back. ...

Hmmm... I don't think wiring is a problem, since there is a beep coming from the amps. If wiring is at fault, the amps won't get a chance to make that Beep. Please ask someone to be in the boot (don't keep it open) with ear plugs. Play the system till it trips (cuts off with beep) - and then see the status LEDs. One of the LEDs would be green if normal, RED if it trips. Strange thing is both amps are cutting off - please confirm from LEDs.

You can also get the voltage checked at the amp supply terminals, from a battery guy. He can also check if the power wire connection is OK at the battery (and not corroded), and if the in-line fuse is healthy. If that voltage is less than 9.6V while playing music, there is definitely a problem with the wiring. If it is more than 12V and it trips, use compressed air to clean the fins of the heat sink of the amplifier - there could be some dust on it. Check again as above after this.

[ramie2400]

Hello,

The voltage is constant fluctuating in the setup,drops are happening till 8.6v within 5seconds.Since its a dual amplifier setup with complete wrong gauge wiring used its difficult to sort the problem individual,and above all Civic has a Power control module issues when a huge setups is installed,which needs to be taken care off or the setup will never be healthy for listening.

Audio gear is in top notch condition nothing needs to be replaced,since its a complete re-installation as good as new,tuning is an issue lots of clipping signals that can be taken care off after installation.its recommended not to use any of the old wiring or harnesses anywhere.Thanks.

Ramie

[salunkhe.vizz]

Originally Posted by ramie2400

The voltage is constant fluctuating in the setup,drops are happening till 8.6v within 5seconds.

Thanks Paaji, I will talk to you offline on when we go ahead with the install (mostly next weekend). I am just confused if I need all 3 (wires+damping+enclosures) or just wiring for now as tight on budget. But agree to your point from yesterday that if I get this done once, then I can sit back and relax with the music for years

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by ramie2400

... constant fluctuating ...

Originally Posted by ramie2400

... drops are happening till 8.6v within 5seconds. ...

Within 5 seconds OF?

What are the amp make and model numbers? Do they have an under-voltage cut-out? If not, the only thing to suffer will be output power, and hence output volume. Unlike a motor driving a load, an amp power supply does not draw increasing amounts of current as the voltage reduces.

Originally Posted by ramie2400

... above all Civic has a Power control module issues when a huge setups is installed,which needs to be taken care off or the setup will never be healthy for listening. ...

GTO's Civic had the same problem due to ELD. The solution was amps with a tighter voltage regulation, i.e. amps which would accept supply voltage less than 9.6V, which is usually the lower limit accepted by most amps.

It was not due to wrong wire size (only the wire will heat up a bit if it has a smaller gauge than required, nothing else is affected). There is nothing called "healthy for listening", or conversely "unhealthy for listening".

Originally Posted by ramie2400

... Audio gear is in top notch condition nothing needs to be replaced, since its a complete re-installation as good as new, tuning is an issue lots of clipping signals that can be taken care off after installation.its recommended not to use any of the old wiring or harnesses anywhere. ...

I think @salunkhe.vizz has expressed his apprehension about the cost of changes. What one would need to do now is research what is the correct change (sure, one *can* get Stegs, but at what cost?), and not induce changes that have nothing to do with his problems.

In reality, from what you and he have described, there seems to be a problem with his charging system and battery. Definitely the ELD doesn't like the load while charging, and the amp doesn't like the low voltage presented to it. Let us focus on solving that.